Transcript of the Hearing 15 October 2013
1 Tuesday, 15 October 2013
2 (10.30 am)
5 (In the presence of the jury)
6 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you very much, members of the
8 Yes, Mr Underwood?
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning. May I call V53, please.
10 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We'll ask for V53 to come into
11 court, please.
12 V53 (sworn)
13 (The witness was anonymised)
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you very much. Have a seat
15 would you, please, firstly, then I can indicate the
16 cameras may now be turned back on and then Mr Underwood
17 will ask you some usual questions.
18 Questions by MR UNDERWOOD
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Good morning.
20 A. Good morning, sir.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: My name is Underwood and I'm counsel to the
22 Inquest and I'll start the questions off. There should
23 be a list in front of you with names and initials and
24 numbers under them; can you look down and find V53?
25 A. I do indeed.
1 Q. Is your name next to that?
2 A. It is indeed, sir, yes.
3 Q. Thank you very much. V53, obviously I'm going to be
4 asking you about the events of 4 August 2011 but before
5 we do that can I ask you about your training and
6 background. When did you join the police force?
7 A. In 1997.
8 Q. As a Constable in ordinary duties?
9 A. Yes, I was, yes, I spent four years on response team,
10 which is your -- on the beat responding to your 999
12 Q. So from 1997 through to 2001 you were doing that?
13 A. Yes, I was, sir, yes.
14 Q. What did you do then?
15 A. I then went on to the Territorial Support Group which is
16 our, like, level 1 public order unit, where I spent four
17 years. At the TSG we provide, like, your football aid;
18 your disorder; your CBRN response, chemical and
19 biological response; we do your unarmed rapid entries.
20 So we're like a level 1 public order unit. During that
21 time as well I became a firearms officer as well because
22 we do counter terrorism drills.
23 Q. What did you have to do to become a firearms officer?
24 A. Initially you have to apply and then you have to do
25 a medical and a physical and then, at that time, I had
1 to do a two-week initial firearms course, which was just
2 for the Glock self-loading pistol. So at that time, in
3 2003, it was a two week course just to become a basic
4 firearms officer with a Glock self-loading pistol only.
5 Q. How did your career develop after that?
6 A. In 2005 I applied for SO19, or CO19 -- or, as we're
7 calling now, SCO19, apologies.
8 Q. We are calling it CO19.
9 A. Okay, good. Again, I had to do an assessment and then,
10 following that assessment, I done a seven-week armed
11 response vehicle course. The first two weeks of that is
12 your firearms training, so you are taught again how to
13 use a Glock self-loading pistol, a MP5 carbine, Taser,
14 baton guns and other weaponry, and then you do a further
15 three weeks of that, where you do your tactics, how you
16 deal with armed criminals in vehicles, on foot or in
17 premises, and then the second -- the sixth and seventh
18 week is where -- how we execute warrants or how we
19 search buildings for armed criminals.
20 So, all in all, the armed response vehicle course is
21 a seven-week course and there's about a 50 per cent pass
22 rate on it.
23 Q. We've seen a video of what I keep calling the "hard
24 stop" being trained.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you have to be trained for that?
2 A. Yes, we were. I appreciate you call it a "hard stop".
3 I think we're probably keep calling it -- if you're
4 happy with that. We call it something different now.
5 Q. You call it a non-compliance stop, I think.
6 A. Yes, that's right, sir. But, yes, we are trained in
7 that, but on that course we do everything in uniform
8 because we're a uniformed asset at that time. So I've
9 done additional training.
10 Q. In the course of that training, that initial full-blown
11 firearms training, were you given exercises in when to
12 shoot, when not to shoot?
13 A. Part of the training is shoot/don't shoot scenarios,
14 either on a judgement range or when you're actually
15 doing tactical training where, for example, in our
16 training facility somebody might come at you with a gun
17 where you might shoot or you might not shoot. So we
18 call it a shoot/no shoot scenario. So, yes, we would do
19 a lot of that regarding process.
20 Q. Initially on that, you said the shoot/no shoot could be
21 done in one of two places?
22 A. Yes, in both ways you do them on -- I suppose if you
23 imagine you walk into a cinema complex and you have
24 a massive screen and you have a video playing, it's
25 probably -- I don't know how to describe it really --
1 yes, a scenario player in front of you and then you
2 would have to deal with that scenario, whether to shoot
3 or not to shoot.
4 Q. What sort of things show up on the screen?
5 A. You would have a scenario, for example, where you would
6 be walking through a school and you would hear gunshots
7 and you would see bodies on the floor and then you would
8 go into a room where the gunman is and he may pose
9 a threat to you and you would have to decide whether to
10 shoot him or not to shoot him, depending on how the
11 instructor wanted the scenario to play out.
12 Q. Was that just training or was that part of the process
13 of weeding people out?
14 A. It's probably weeding people out because again one of
15 the most important things is your threat assessment, so
16 again you need to justify every shot that you fire and
17 you need to have -- you need to be tactically sound and
18 you need to make good judgment calls in split second
20 Q. Okay. So we are at the point where you have done this
22 A. Indeed, sir.
23 Q. Did you then start carrying firearms on the street?
24 A. Yes, for four years then I was out on the uniform side
25 of CO19's business, which is our armed response
2 Q. Right. Then what happened?
3 A. After four years, I applied to sort of specialise
4 further within our department. I applied to become
5 a Tactical Support Team Officer, which is further
7 Q. That's what you were in 2011?
8 A. It is indeed, sir, yes.
9 Q. What was the further training?
10 A. You do a two-day assessment on the current skills that
11 you have and then if you pass that assessment you go
12 onto a further seven-week course. That course is more
13 to deal with covert carriage of firearms. Whereas on
14 the armed response vehicles you're in uniform, most of
15 our work on the Tactical Support Team side of business
16 is covert, where we wear plain clothes.
17 So, for example, we would be taught how to carry out
18 covert reconnaissance on premises, we would plan and
19 brief and execute warrants but we would also be trained
20 in Mobile Armed Support to Surveillance.
21 Q. That shoot/no shoot part of the training you talked
22 about at the earlier stage, was that any part of any
23 refresher courses or any updates of training?
24 A. We go training for one week every six weeks and you are
25 continually re-assessed on it, you are continually
1 trained on it. It's not -- just because you go to
2 a course you continually are assessed on it because --
3 I'm a firearms instructor also, so if somebody wasn't up
4 to the mark, even though they may have passed all the
5 courses, if you do something wrong in a training
6 exercise, we'll be having words, it may be you would
7 lose your authority to carry a firearm. So you are
8 continually assessed.
9 Q. Right. Just in terms of the training and the continued
10 assessment, was any part of that to do with shoot/don't
11 shoot in a hard stop?
12 A. Yes, it would be, sir, yes.
13 Q. I think you are also a medic; is that right?
14 A. I am indeed, sir, yes.
15 Q. Tell us about the training for that.
16 A. Again, within our department we have the firearms medics
17 and that's a two-week course. The first of that course
18 if where you do an outside qualification, which is first
19 aid at work, which is like a health and safety, where
20 you deal with breathing, bleeding, burns, and so on and
21 so forth.
22 Then the second week of the course is what we call
23 "environmental training". It's where we get -- in the
24 nicest possible term, we get a make-up artist to come in
25 and she'll actually get one of our stooges or one of our
1 instructors and she'll actually put make-up to signify
2 wounds. So we will play out firearms scenarios and
3 then, for example, gunshot wounds and then we would have
4 to deal with that wound whilst being assessed by medical
5 professionals, paramedics, as well as we had
6 a consultant from the air ambulance who turned up as
7 well. So again, that's an assessment process as well.
8 Q. Okay. Let's move to 3 August 2011. We know there was
9 a briefing at about 6 o'clock that day to do with TMD,
10 what might happen over the course of the next four
11 working days and what you might be facing. We know
12 that, in fact, the firearms team didn't leave
13 Quicksilver that day.
14 A. No, we didn't, sir, no.
15 Q. Can you give us a snapshot, please, of your
16 understanding, as of the 3rd, of what you might be
17 dealing with over the course of the next four days, as
18 you understood it?
19 A. Yes. Again, we had a tactical briefing before then and
20 then we had a main operation briefing at 6 o'clock. The
21 Tactical Firearms Commander and the briefing officer
22 gave a briefing that we were to provide Mobile Armed
23 Support to Surveillance. So we, as a firearms team, are
24 providing an armed arrest capability, such --
25 sufficiency of evidence come about where we would carry
1 out an armed interception.
2 Information we received was that this operation was
3 targeting the Tottenham Man Dem Crew and we were looking
4 to disrupt their activities and ideally arrest one of
5 their subjects, in possession of a firearm once
6 information came about. Then we received further
7 intelligence that Mark Duggan was one of those subjects,
8 that may take possession of a firearm.
9 Q. Had you had any dealings with TMD before?
10 A. Yes, I had, yes.
11 Q. Tell us about that?
12 A. About 18 months previously, we were on Operation Dibri
13 and again on a particular day a transaction took
14 place --
15 Q. Do you mean a gun?
16 A. -- a gun transaction took place, where a female took
17 possession of a Glock self-loading pistol and 150 rounds
18 of ammunition. So 150 rounds, if I can sort of make
19 a comparison, if you look at what happened in Manchester
20 where two WPCs were shot dead by David Cregan (sic), he
21 fired 38 rounds in 32 seconds. This female had five
22 times the amount of ammunition on her that day.
23 So the surveillance team took her away and we
24 carried out a hard stop, we recovered a firearm and the
25 ammunition, she was arrested, the surveillance team
1 picked up the supplier around ten minutes later, and
2 again we carried out a hard stop on the supplier and he
3 was arrested with the money from the transaction and he
4 was convicted also.
5 Then a couple of months later we took out another
6 gentleman who was involved with that transaction. We
7 carried out a hard stop on him. I'm led to believe he
8 was arrested, however he escaped under hospital guard
9 and he was re-arrested a couple of days later. So I do
10 have experience of the TMD.
11 Q. Presumably you talked amongst your team about the TMD,
12 did you?
13 A. Yes, we would have done, because some of the guys would
14 not have been on the operation previously, so I would
15 have said, from previous briefings, the TMD are --
16 I don't want to heap praise on them because that's the
17 wrong word, but they're very good at what they do, as in
18 not getting caught, so we would have to be equally as
20 Q. Let me ask you -- again, this is still a snapshot of
21 3 August and your understanding of what might happen
22 over the next few days, based on what you knew. What
23 sort of guns, in your experience, were the people you
24 were expecting to deal with likely to handle?
25 A. We didn't know -- from what I recall we didn't know
1 exactly what type of firearm they would have but it
2 could be anything between a handgun, a revolver up to
3 a Mac-10 submachine gun. We were not told from what
4 I can recall, what type of firearm they were going to
5 take possession, but from experience, gangs usually
6 carry handguns up to Mac-10 submachine guns, which are
7 horrible. There's no other way of saying that, to be
9 Q. I do not want to go ahead but we are going to talk about
10 a gun in a sock. Let's stick with the snapshot of
11 3 August. Had you had any experience or did you have
12 any knowledge of guns being used in socks?
13 A. Yes, I had, yes. I have had a number of experiences.
14 Around six months before August, we had a briefing from
15 some colleagues of mine who were involved in another
16 fatal police shooting in 2007, in Hanger Lane, in west
17 London, where my colleagues went to intercept a male who
18 was in possession of a firearm. He actually opened fire
19 on my colleagues and he had the gun in a sock, and the
20 bullet literally just missed one of my friends by
21 millimetres. It actually left, like, gun residue on his
22 face because it went so close to him. There was
23 an exchange of gunfire and that guy was unfortunately
24 killed by police and he had possession of a handgun that
25 was in a sock.
1 A couple of months previously, again we carried out
2 an armed interception in north London and again, a bit
3 of a coincidence, it was on a minicab, and again the guy
4 in that car had a gun, a revolver, wrapped up in a sock.
5 So it seemed to be a bit of an MO, if I may say,
6 that criminals or gangs carry firearms in socks because
7 it doesn't leave any forensic residue. Again, if you
8 look at it, when a bullet flies out of a gun, if it is
9 in a sock it will stay within the sock, so you are not
10 leaving any evidence and it's far easier to conceal in
11 a sock. But, yes, it's still as deadly.
12 Q. On that "it'll stay in the sock, you are not leaving any
13 evidence", are you talking about the cartridge case?
14 A. I am, yes, I do apologise, yes.
15 Q. In a self-loading pistol, ordinarily the cartridge
16 casing will eject, will it?
17 A. It will indeed, sir, yes.
18 Q. Let's move to 4 August. We know that your team came on
19 duty at roughly 4 o'clock --
20 A. We did indeed, sir, yes.
21 Q. -- at Leman Street. Did you receive any briefing at all
23 A. Yes. V59, who's our team leader, he gave us another
24 up-to-date briefing from the previous day but there's no
25 change in the intelligence and he read it from the --
1 I think you may have seen it -- the FA1 form.
2 Q. We have. You were posted, I think, to the Charlie car?
3 A. I was indeed. I was posted on the Charlie car as
5 Q. Which is the front seat passenger?
6 A. Front nearside, yes, sir.
7 Q. I want to talk about armament. You had your Glock SLP,
8 did you?
9 A. I did indeed, sir, yes.
10 Q. Your MP5?
11 A. Yes, I did. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Are they personal to you, those two weapons?
13 A. Yes, they are, yes.
14 Q. You had a Taser as well, I think.
15 A. I did indeed, sir, yes.
16 Q. Now, we have a Glock and an MP5 and a Taser, all of
17 which I'm assured have been made safe. Can we have
18 a look at those please, because I want to ask you for
19 your help. Can we start with the Glock? (Handed)
20 A. Are you happy for me to stand up?
21 Q. Please stand up if you want, but bear in mind the
22 distance from the microphone is going to increase.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. That's a Glock 9mm self-loading pistol?
25 A. Yes, it's a Glock 17 self-loading pistol.
1 Q. That one has a torch attached.
2 A. It does, indeed. We call it "tac a luminaire". Again,
3 if we use it in dark conditions, yes, there's a tac
4 a luminaire torch attached also (indicates).
5 Q. Because this is the first time we have had sight of
6 a gun, and sorry to ask you to do this, but can you give
7 us some basic explanation about how one of these works?
8 Can you take the magazine out?
9 A. Yes (indicates).
10 Q. The bullets go in the magazine in the first place, yes?
11 A. Yes (indicates).
12 That holds 17 9mm rounds.
13 Q. The first thing you do if you put bullets in a magazine
14 then is to put the magazine in the gun; is that right?
15 A. Yes. Can I demonstrate, if you're happy. So again,
16 guys, that would be full up with 17 rounds of
17 ammunition. You put in the magazine and then you would
18 rack it (indicates) and now that weapon is what we would
19 call in Condition 1, which means there's a bullet in the
20 breach and all we need to do now is pull the trigger and
21 that gun will go bang and a round will be fired. So
22 that weapon is ready to go.
23 Q. The Glock doesn't have an external safety catch, does
25 A. No, it doesn't. It has three built-in safeties, it's
1 actually a very safe weapon. Again, it has a trigger
2 safety (indicates), it has a drop safety and it has
3 a firing pin safety. I do not want to go into too much
4 detail but, basically, that gun will only go bang if you
5 pull the trigger. So, even if you were to drop it on
6 the floor, even with it loaded, it would not go bang
7 unless you pull the trigger, because you can just see
8 a little device on the trigger, it needs the -- your
9 finger to squeeze that for it to go off.
10 Q. Some pistols have an external safety catch, do they not?
11 A. Some do, yes.
12 Q. We'll look at the Bruni in a bit, I think that one does.
13 But where you have a pistol with an external safety
14 catch, in order to go from the position we were just in
15 when you put the magazine in, first of all you have to
16 rack the slide back, yes?
17 A. Yes, you would do, yes.
18 Q. Then, in order to fire it, you would have to flick the
19 safety off?
20 A. You would do or you may have to cock it, depending on
21 what weapon system it is.
22 Q. Thank you. In terms of your use of a Glock, where would
23 that live on your body?
24 A. That would be on my hip. So, again, I would have
25 a covert holster on and it would be like this
1 (indicates) and again it would be covered up, and this
2 would be my secondary weapon, my primary being the MP5.
3 Q. Right. I said that's a 9mm; that's the diameter of the
5 A. It is indeed yes.
6 Q. In terms of the type of ammunition, is that any
7 different to the 9mm that the -- the MP5 would fire?
8 A. No, it's the same ammunition. Literally, I think
9 a couple of months previously, we changed bullets, for
10 a better word, and we went to 124-grain hollow point
11 round, which is apparently a better bullet because it --
12 basically how it impacts on the person's body. It
13 spreads more, it has more stopping capability and it
14 should reduce over-penetration. So we literally changed
15 bullets, probably a couple of months previously, but
16 it's still -- both bullets work in both weapons, both
17 the Glock and the MP5.
18 Q. How many rounds did you take out with you on the 4th?
19 A. I would have -- for the Glock I would carry -- there
20 will be 17 in the weapon, I would carry another 17 for
21 the Glock on my person and then I would carry a third
22 magazine of 17 in what we call a grab bag, which would
23 be in our boot, in case we came -- if you look at what
24 happened in Kenya or Mumbai-type CT operation, we would
25 carry more ammunition.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You are right handed, are you?
2 A. I am indeed, yes.
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Did it have the torch on then?
4 A. It did, yes. It would do, sir, yes.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps we can exchange that for the Taser.
6 I don't know whether the jury are interested in
7 handling these but if so --
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think they might be, if they wish
9 to, because it's quite important to feel the weight. So
10 if they were willing to do that, please pass it around.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: It is deactivated.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It's been forensically tested so
13 there's no difficulties about touching it if you wanted
15 (The weapon was passed around the jury)
16 MR UNDERWOOD: Tasers: am I right in understanding that the
17 purpose of a Taser is to put an electric shock into
19 A. It is. In fairly basic terms, that's what it is. What
20 we're looking to achieve with a Taser is -- technical
21 term -- neuromuscular incapacitation or NMI, which
22 basically means we -- 50,000 volts will go through the
23 person which go through their skeleton mass, which will
24 hopefully achieve neuromuscular incapacitation, which
25 basically means their muscles are -- unable to control
1 their muscles or their motor functions. So, for
2 example, if they had a knife they would not be able to
3 stab you and hopefully drop it. However, like
4 everything, it does have its limitations.
5 Q. There are two ways of using it, I think: one in the
6 state it's in now, and one with a black box in it?
7 A. Yes, this isn't working. There are two ways to use this
8 Taser: one of them is in a drive stun mode, where the
9 cartridge is either on or off and if you are up close
10 and personal -- if, for example, I was being attacked
11 I would drive stun them, where I drive the weapon into
12 their chest or any part of their body, and I would
13 administer a shock which -- the cycle lasts for five
15 Q. How does it work with that black cartridge attached?
16 A. Again, this is a cartridge, this is how we would carry
17 it (indicates) and, again, this has a range of 21 feet
18 maximum, and the optimum range is between 7 and 15.
19 What happens here is when you fire it, a blast doors
20 come off and two wires are ejected and come out on two
21 darts and they go out at a 80-degree angle and what we
22 are looking to achieve is for those darts to hit the
23 person to get a good spread on the person, if that makes
24 sense, because the bigger the spread, the bigger the
25 shock that person is going to get.
1 So, again, that would deploy with 50,000 volts. So
2 again, I don't know if you can see the dart there
3 (indicates). That's the dart that comes out. Again,
4 with every weapon, weapon system, it has its limitations
5 that will not penetrate clothing more than two
6 millimetres -- not two millimetres, two inches, I do
7 apologise. It's not 100 per cent effective. Again, it
8 has its limitations because it can only be effective
9 within a maximum of 21 feet. Again, we could miss and
10 it's like a single shot weapon: once you fire it, you
11 have to reload it, if that makes sense.
12 Q. Thanks. Again, if the jury want to see that no doubt it
13 can be passed around.
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Does it have a battery or something?
15 A. No, sir, nothing will happen -- no shock.
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: No, I don't mean that. It's the
17 weight. I presume that when you have a battery on it,
18 it's much heavier.
19 A. Yes, it's around the same weight.
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It's about that weight, is it?
21 A. It's much lighter than the weapon that has been handed
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think the jury might like to feel
24 the weight.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: As that's going towards the jury, can you
1 just tell us how you carried that on 4 August?
2 A. I carried it -- I had it on -- I was wearing combat
3 trousers and I had it in my left pocket, and again
4 that's -- it has to be on the opposite side to your
5 firearm, that's part of our SOP.
6 Q. That would have been on your left-hand side?
7 A. Left, indeed, sir, yes.
8 (The weapon was passed around the jury)
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's move on to the MP5, please. Can we
10 have a look at that? Again, I emphasise this has been
11 deactivated. It's a great big black thing.
12 A. It is, yes, one way of putting it.
13 Q. What are we looking at here, in terms of parts it?
14 A. Again guys, this is a MP5 carbine. A carbine is
15 basically smaller than a rifle but bigger than
16 a handgun, okay?
17 This is our primary weapon. It's very accurate and
18 it's very reliable and it's used probably throughout
19 special forces units around the world and other police
20 units. It has a stock which you would put on your
21 shoulder (indicates), which is collapsible. It has
22 a selector lever (indicates) here. The white just means
23 it's on safe and then, when you click it to fire, it's
24 on single fire mode, so basically every time you pull
25 the trigger, one round is discharged. So it's not
1 a fully automatic weapon, which I don't know if you've
2 seen on TV, where if you hold a trigger and lots of
3 bullets fly. So on this particular model you fire one
4 round for every time you pull the trigger.
5 Q. It is self-loading, isn't it?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. So all you have to do is press the trigger to get
8 another one?
9 A. Indeed, yes. It has a magazine. This magazine will
10 hold 26 rounds and, again, I would carry another 14 on
11 my person and I would carry another 66 in a grab bag.
12 Again, it was a CT-style operation. So 106 rounds we
13 would carry for this weapon.
14 The sight system: it has is a rear sight and a fore
15 sight and, again, how you would get what we would call
16 a sight picture is you bring it up to your shoulder and
17 you look through the sight (indicates). Again, you
18 would keep open your master eye.
19 On my particular weapon, I also had an EO tech
20 sight. An EO tech sight is -- let me just turn that
21 on -- a glass mounted sight system, it has a red --
22 I don't know if you can see it, guys.
23 Q. We'll hand it round in a minute.
24 A. It has a red dot within that glass viewing screen and
25 where that red dot is is where you are aiming at, but
1 there's no laser beam or anything like that. It's
2 literally you will just see that. The benefit of this
3 sight is you can use with both eyes open, whereas when
4 you usually shoot, you have to keep your weak eye closed
5 and your master eye open. However, with this weapon
6 system or this sighting system, you use it with both
7 eyes open.
8 Q. Can I just have it for a moment?
9 A. Of course you can, sir. (Handed)
10 Q. Because the cameras can't see you for the people
11 upstairs. So your left arm goes, assuming you're
12 right-handed, on the front grip, yes?
13 A. It does, yes.
14 Q. Then back and that (indicates). How would you normally
15 carry it?
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Point it over here so the camera
17 upstairs can see it easier.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: When you are approaching a subject who may be
19 armed, would you be looking like this (indicates)?
20 A. I would have it on a -- what we call a north aim ready
21 position, so it's actually not in the aim but it's like
22 slightly lower, which means I can get, like, vision of
23 everything that's going on.
24 Q. If you bring it up and you look through the glass sight
25 you've got both eyes open, have you?
1 A. Yes. Again, if you see where the red dot is, that's
2 where the round would go.
3 Q. The other sights, are these called iron sights?
4 A. They are indeed sir.
5 Q. Would you ever use those if you have the EO sights on?
6 A. Again, if I had a failure on the EO tech, because it's
7 battery operated, I would go back to the iron sights.
8 Q. I am not wanting to move forward to the events of
9 Ferry Lane yet but, in principle, if you were carrying
10 one of these in a hard stop or whatever the terminology
11 is, as you get out of your car with this, how would it
13 A. It would be in off-aim ready position, select lever to
15 Q. With a sling round your --
16 A. Yes, a sling would be round me, yes.
17 Q. -- over your shoulders, and with the selector on safe or
19 A. If I was in the off-aim ready position, I'm actively
20 using that weapon, so it would be on fire. But my
21 finger would be outside the trigger guard.
22 Q. Perhaps we can hand this around. (Handed)
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: If you do not want to handle it,
24 members of the jury, do not. It is quite heavy, I'm
25 sure the officer who has it now will be next to you if
1 you want any --
2 (The weapon was passed around the jury)
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It's quite important, I think, for
4 the jury to feel the weight of it and if they want to
5 look through the sights, I'm quite happy if they point
6 it at me, just to get an idea of what you see through
7 the sight.
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Thanks, officer. Let's move on to the events
9 of the 4th then: so you're kitted up, wearing body
11 A. Initially I wasn't wearing body armour until we got to
13 Q. So you have got your armaments with you, you are in the
14 Charlie car, you are on your way to Quicksilver; what
15 happens on the way to Quicksilver?
16 A. On the way to Quicksilver our team leader, V59, he got
17 an update that the subject of operation was going to
18 Leyton to pick up a firearm, and that was at about 5.15,
19 I believe.
20 Q. Did you know it was Mark Duggan at that stage?
21 A. I don't believe so.
22 Q. We've heard that everybody went to Quicksilver at full
23 speed then, in your team.
24 A. Yes, we did, yes.
25 Q. What happened at Quicksilver?
1 A. At Quicksilver we got kitted up, so again I put body
2 armour on, put covert communication devices on and get
3 everything in the car ready to go. I would have gloves
4 near me, I wear what's called a raid jacket, which is
5 a blue, sort of, civilian-like jacket, but it has flaps,
6 hidden flaps, and they would be hidden, so I would have
7 that on me. I would have a medic leg bag on the floor
8 by me and I would have my MP5 in the footwell of the
9 car. So we are getting in the state of readiness to
11 Q. I want another snapshot of your state of mind at this
12 stage. How often had you been in that situation, where
13 you had just got kitted up, you had just got
14 intelligence that you were going off to do a stop with
15 somebody who may be armed?
16 A. Probably at that time, I would -- I had probably been
17 involved in 50 Mobile Armed to Support operations where
18 we've actually carried out interceptions, so probably in
19 excess of 50, I would probably say.
20 Q. How had they gone?
21 A. Sorry, sir?
22 Q. How had they gone?
23 A. We never lost anyone, sir, that's the main thing, and we
24 recovered numerous firearms during that time.
25 Q. Any shots ever been fired?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So would you describe yourself as nervous at all at that
4 A. You always have an apprehension because, you know, we
5 are not naive to think -- you're going up against
6 criminals who have access to firearms. Obviously, we're
7 trained to use firearms but there's definitely a bit of
8 apprehension, bit of nervousness because you want to
9 perform at the best of your ability.
10 Again, I do not want to give respect to gangs and
11 please don't think I am, but I actually had a healthy
12 respect for this gang because they were very good at
13 what they do. So, again, we needed to be at the top of
14 our game to deal with these criminals.
15 Q. Let me disentangle that a bit. You have told us about
16 one instance where another officer had been fired at and
17 nearly hit.
18 A. Indeed, sir.
19 Q. Was that the same gang?
20 A. No, it wasn't, sir, no.
21 Q. In terms of TMD, had you any knowledge or experience of
22 them ever threatening or shooting at an officer?
23 A. I received briefings the previous year to do with TMD
24 and during that previous operation where I described, we
25 received daily briefings that the TMD had been involved
1 in numerous fatal and non-fatal shootings, kidnappings,
2 the supply of class A drugs within London, and they had
3 been involved in stops where they've actually made
4 determined attempts to escape, discarded firearms, they
5 had been very surveillance-aware, and so on.
6 Q. Would this be fair: the knowledge you had from those
7 briefings were that this committed gang -- and I do not
8 say one way or the other whether Mr Duggan was a member
9 of the gang, we appreciate what the intelligence says.
10 A. Indeed, sir.
11 Q. So your assumption was that the intelligence was
12 accurate, I take it?
13 A. I do, sir, yes.
14 Q. On the basis of that intelligence, your expectation
15 would be then that these people would make determined
16 efforts to escape --
17 A. I think there would be a strong possibility, yes.
18 Q. -- and to distance themselves from firearms?
19 A. Not necessarily distance themselves, maybe to
20 actually -- obviously I believe they would attempt,
21 maybe, escape but escape -- they may use firearms in
22 an attempt to escape as well.
23 Q. You have no experience or briefing of that, had you --
24 or had you?
25 A. Not at that time, from what I recall.
1 Q. Had you any briefing or experience of TMD members
2 threatening an officer with a firearm?
3 A. I don't remember any intelligence at that time, sir, no.
4 Q. Before you left Quicksilver on 4 August, did you get any
5 further briefings or warnings?
6 A. Yes, V59 gave us an update briefing -- can I just refer
7 to my statement, if I may, sir?
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: What, concerning your briefing? You
9 have your statements there?
10 A. I do.
11 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: As long as you let us know which one
12 you are referring to, because there were a number of
13 statements made on different days.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: The first large statement was 7 August.
15 A. It was indeed, sir, yes.
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Is that the one you're looking at
18 A. It is indeed, sir, yes. If you just bear with me.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Of course, yes, take your time.
20 A. (Pause)
21 MR UNDERWOOD: In the hard copy version it's page 4 on our
22 page 72.
23 A. I've got my own handwritten statement.
24 Q. Have you found the part you want?
25 A. I have indeed, sir.
1 Q. How does the paragraph start?
2 A. "At Quicksilver ..."
3 Q. If you bear with us for a moment, that is our page 72.
4 We'll have it up on the screen. Please, do go on.
5 A. Lovely, thank you.
6 Q. If you can remember, I would prefer you to use your
7 memory as far as you can, but if you want to back to
8 a statement that was made nearer the time to refresh
9 your memory, please feel free, whichever is most
11 A. Yes, thank you:
12 "At Quicksilver V59 gave the team an update."
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Is that screen not working?
14 MR UNDERWOOD: That one is out, for some reason.
15 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We'll ask the technical people
16 below -- they can hear me, I know -- to make sure the
17 screen is working.
18 Can you see that screen all right, members of the
19 jury. That's not so good, is it? It's a bit further
21 MR UNDERWOOD: No. All right, we'll pan around. Please
22 read it for us?
23 A. "At Quicksilver V59 gave the team an update. It was
24 believed that a male, Mark Duggan, was going to take
25 possession of a firearm. I was informed that an unarmed
1 surveillance team were monitoring him. At Quicksilver,
2 due to the fast moving developments and intelligence
3 picture I received no further main briefing."
5 "At 17.45 V59 asked us if we were aware of our
6 firearms warnings and we said we were."
7 Q. Tell us about firearms warnings?
8 A. Firearms warnings are given to firearms officers at main
9 briefings. They are there to give you a strict reminder
10 of when firearms can be discharged, to remind you of
11 your powers to use force under section 3 of the Criminal
12 Law Act, Common Law, section 117 of PACE and article 2
13 of ECHR, and also tell you that you are accountable for
14 every round of fire and ask you if you are fit for duty.
15 Q. Let's move on then. You went off in convey fashion,
16 I think?
17 A. Yes, we did, yes, in mass formation.
18 Q. Were you aware of more intelligence coming in as you
19 travelled out?
20 A. If you could just bear with me.
21 Q. Please.
22 A. As we left the patrol base at 17.55 we were on state
23 green, which I believe you've been told about the
24 traffic light system.
25 Q. We have.
1 A. Then at approximately 1800 hours, V59, who's our team
2 leader, he put over our radio "State amber, state
3 amber", which means that the Tactical Firearms Commander
4 has authorised an armed interception to take place.
5 Q. So did that convey to you that the subject did have
6 a gun?
7 A. It more or less -- we received further intel as we moved
8 along but once a Tactical Firearms Commander calls state
9 amber, my mindset is going through -- because we work
10 with Operation Trident so often, I've actually faith in
11 their sort of intelligence gathering, they are not going
12 to call state amber on a wing and a prayer or hidden
13 hope, I suppose, because this is such a prolonged
14 investigation. So again by them calling state amber
15 I would suspect there's very strong intelligence to
16 suggest that the subject of the operation will be in
17 possession of a firearm.
18 Q. I interrupted you but I think you said that some further
19 intelligence then came in to confirm that?
20 A. It did indeed, sir, yes. As we went through state
21 amber, if you just bear with me. (Pause)
22 Again, I don't know -- do you want the page or --
23 Q. I think we've got it. It's our page 73.
24 A. Okay. I said:
25 "A few minutes later I heard a further update from
1 V59 over my radio confirming that the subject was in the
2 rear of the minicab and confirmed that he was in
3 possession of a firearm."
4 Q. Did you do anything else to make yourself ready for what
5 was to come?
6 A. Again, I got -- I pulled down my police flap on the
7 front of my jacket and I got my rear Hatton gunner, W70,
8 to pull down the flaps on the back of my jacket, which
9 shows "Metropolitan Police Specialist Firearms".
10 I would have put my medic leg bag on, I would have put
11 gloves on, I would have my blue baseball cap, police
12 baseball cap, by my hand and I would actually put the
13 weapon MP5 actually on me, but sort of discreet as
15 Q. When you say on you, you mean on the sling?
16 A. On the sling sorry, sir, on the sling.
17 Q. Did you have any discussion that you can recall?
18 A. I spoke to my two colleagues and I said there's probably
19 a high chance that the subject of this operation will
20 probably attempt an escape, because of the previous
21 briefings I had regarding Operation Dibri and TMD.
22 Those two officers were not actually on that briefing,
23 but because of the previous intelligence picture that
24 I was given, I thought there's a high chance that
25 an escape attempt would occur.
1 Q. What was your thought process about the minicab driver?
2 A. Again, the minicab driver -- again, we've experience of
3 dealing with minicab drivers in this kind of scenario.
4 Again, it's a bit of a MO for gangs within London to use
5 minicabs because it does not draw attention to them, if
6 they're driving around in a minicab in the back.
7 So, again, the majority of the time the minicab
8 driver will be an innocent member of the public.
9 However, there may be some occasions where they may be
10 told, you know, here is £10, forget what you've seen and
11 bits and pieces. So, again, we didn't have any
12 intelligence actually on the minicab driver but we would
13 treat him as an unknown risk.
14 Q. Just on this, if what I call a "hard stop" is called
15 a "non-compliance stop" in police terms, was there any
16 reason to believe the minicab would be non-compliant?
17 A. We didn't have any intelligence, sir, no.
18 Q. Do you know whether any thought was put to some other
19 form of stopping the minicab if the driver might have
20 been innocent?
21 A. No. Again, the threat is the person in the rear
22 because, again, the taxi driver could be -- or in this
23 particular case was -- a innocent member of the public.
24 If we had done perhaps a different tactic, there may be
25 a chance that the subject in the rear of the cab may
1 actually hold the driver hostage or hold him under
2 duress. So, again, by doing the tactic of
3 a non-compliant hard stop, we're trying to prevent the
4 subject from escaping, from doing any violence, but,
5 again, the main thing is we are trying to maximum the
6 safety of the public by isolating him from the public.
7 So there's the subject, armed police and members of
8 the public, so we're trying to isolate the subject from
9 members of the public, so we're actually trying to
10 maximise the safety of the minicab driver by doing
11 a hard stop.
12 Q. Right. Did there come a point where you were listening
13 to commentary over the radio of the surveillance team
14 following the minicab?
15 A. Yes, we did, sir, yes.
16 Q. How was that described, that minicab?
17 A. The minicab to me was an old style gold people carrier,
18 the registration number was R343 KPE.
19 Q. Let's have a look at this since we're on your statement,
20 at page 75, the top paragraph. You say:
21 "I heard commentary that the target vehicle/minicab
22 which was an old style gold people carrier [you give the
23 registration] was in Blackhorse Road in front of a BMW
24 X5. I scanned the road in front of me, saw the X5 and
25 in front of it I clearly identified the minicab. It's
1 distinctive due to its 'gold' like colour and mirror in
2 its back window."
3 Officer, it was silver, wasn't it?
4 A. I don't know, sir. I would probably describe it as
5 gold, to be honest with you, I recall.
6 Q. Let's take this in stages. First of all we know from
7 ZZ37 that he described it as bronze; do you recall that?
8 A. No, sir, I don't.
9 Q. The commentary may well have had "bronze" in it; do you
11 A. I don't recall, sir, no.
12 Q. "Gold" is used twice in the flip charts that V59 put
13 together for the briefing on 7 August; do you recall
15 A. I do, sir, yes.
16 Q. Everybody seems to describe it either as bronze from
17 that commentary or gold from the flip charts. I'll be
18 corrected if I'm wrong by saying it's everybody but at
19 least a large number of the officers making notes and
20 making their statements on 7 August pick up that colour
22 A. Okay, sir.
23 Q. Now, you're saying, are you, that you remember it as
24 being gold?
25 A. That's how I would describe it, sir, yes. It was
1 distinctive because of its gold colour and particularly
2 the mirror that was on the back window of it.
3 Q. If I were to suggest to you the possibility that you've
4 written down on 7 August the word "gold" simply because
5 it was put on the flip charts, that would be wrong,
6 would it?
7 A. That would be wrong, sir, yes.
8 Q. Let's move on. We've got you now in convoy following
9 the minicab, you've caught sight of it and there's a BMW
10 X5 between it and police vehicles. What happened then?
11 Again, as best you can recall, please.
12 A. Yes. We're in Ferry Lane, so we're undertaking traffic
13 so we're trying to be covert as possible, because if we
14 start overtaking vehicles on the wrong side of the road
15 and bits and pieces, somebody who's surveillance-aware
16 is going to clock us and they're going to be on their
17 toes even quicker. So again, we're trying to be as
18 covert as possible but at the same time we're trying to
19 make progress as naturally as possible through the
20 traffic. Again we're in plain clothes and in plain
21 clothes cars.
22 We got behind the X5 and then beyond the X5 was the
23 minicab, and then the minicab -- not the minicab -- the
24 X5, pulled -- turned left, I don't know the road name,
25 but that basically left the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and
1 our control car directly behind the minicab.
2 Q. What happened then?
3 A. Once we got there, state red was called, I remember, and
4 then W42, who's in the lead vehicle, he called "Strike,
5 strike, strike".
6 Q. Did you see the stop go in?
7 A. Yes, I did, yes. Again, we were reaching the brow of
8 the bridge of Ferry Lane, so you've got a large grassed
9 area round to the left, you've got a pillar and then
10 you've got, like, a five/six foot fence line to the
11 nearside and a footpath. The minicab is going and then
12 the Alpha car overtakes and then (indicates) the Bravo
13 car overtakes and my car, the Charlie car, we stay at
14 the back.
15 The Alpha car -- basically, what we're trying to do
16 is enforce that vehicle to stop, that minicab is going
17 to stop whether it wants to or not because we need to
18 stop that vehicle. So, again, the Alpha car cuts in in
19 front, at an angle (indicates), the Bravo car goes
20 alongside and then the vehicle I'm in, the Charlie car,
21 we go up the back of the minicab leaving around a couple
22 of inch gap.
23 So where we actually stop is directly behind the
24 minicab, as close as possible, to prevent that minicab
25 from ramming his way out or trying to escape by
1 vehicular access (indicates).
2 Q. Did that go to plan?
3 A. It did, yes indeed. Initially, the minicab, I would
4 say, didn't stop as quickly as we would have liked, it
5 wasn't failing the stop or anything. Again, normally we
6 would not necessarily use two tones but I remember two
7 tones being used or "whoop woo", for a better word,
8 being used to bring the car to a halt.
9 Q. Was there any delay in any one of the cars getting into
11 A. No, not that I recall.
12 Q. Can we look at page CE263. It will come up on your
13 screen, I hope, even if not all the others. Is this
14 a plan you drew, do you recall?
15 A. Yes, I've signed that. That was given to the IPCC at
16 some stage.
17 Q. The Alpha car is not on here because it had been moved
18 by the time the laser scan took place.
19 A. Indeed.
20 Q. The BMW directly behind the minicab is your car, isn't
22 A. It is indeed, sir, yes.
23 Q. As far as you're concerned, is that where it did indeed
25 A. It did indeed, yes. It wasn't moved.
1 Q. Keeping that in front of us, we'll go back to your
2 statement if we have to but keeping that up, tell us
3 what happened next?
4 A. As the strike happened, (indicates) as we're slowing
5 down, Mark Duggan is sat behind the rear nearside of the
6 minicab, so he is sat behind the driver. As the stop
7 goes in, I'm looking towards and he then darts across
8 the back seat from right to left -- I would describe at
9 pace -- and that took, you know, my mindset at that time
10 was he's looking to escape because of his actions. So
11 again, as we put the hit in, he's darting across the
12 back seat of the minicab from right to left towards the
14 Q. While the vehicles were still moving or after?
15 A. I think it was -- just came to a halt or there or
17 Q. Then what happened?
18 A. At that time, I start to get out of my vehicle, at that
19 time I would have put a blue baseball cap on and, as I'm
20 in the process of opening my car door or there or
21 thereabouts, I saw W42, who came from the Alpha car. He
22 would have been the front seat passenger, he's armed
23 with a MP5 carbine, he has a police baseball cap on and
24 he is shouting into the structure of the minicab where
25 Mark Duggan still is, and he's shouting "Armed police".
1 Q. Whereabouts -- looking at the plan we've got on screen,
2 you're just getting out of your car, are you?
3 A. Yes, I'm in the process of probably opening the door and
4 getting out.
5 Q. Still on the -- either in the car or on the road rather
6 than the pavement?
7 A. Yes, I cannot be precise. I would have been in the
8 process of exiting that car, I believe.
9 Q. Where was W42?
10 A. I can't be precise. He would have been on the pavement
11 before -- obviously the sliding door, I cannot be
12 precise. He would have been on the footpath.
13 Q. By the side of the minicab, though?
14 A. Yes. He would have been aiming towards the minicab or
15 the structure of the minicab.
16 Q. So very close to where Mr Duggan would be coming out, if
17 Mr Duggan came out?
18 A. Yes, I would probably say so, yes. Again, I cannot give
19 a distance but, yes, he would be very close.
20 Q. What did you see then?
21 A. As I start to get out as well, the minicab door opens
22 and Mark Duggan jumped out. The way I describe this is
23 he's jumped out at pace, you know, he has a spring in
24 his step, and that again convinced me that he was
25 looking to escape.
1 Q. Let's just stop there, please. From the angle you would
2 have been at, if you were either by your car door or on
3 the pavement or the kerb there, could you see the door
4 itself slide or are you assuming that the door slid
6 A. You can sort of see, because of the sliding -- the way
7 the door slides, you can see it's sort of going
8 parallel, if that makes sense. So if that's the door
9 (indicates), you can sort of see sliding back, if that
10 makes sense.
11 Q. So you were sufficiently on the pavement were you to be
12 able to see the minicab side?
13 A. I believe so, yes. I definitely seen the door slide
15 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You saw the door sliding open?
16 A. Yes. Along the rails on the side of the car.
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The side of the minicab, yes.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: What did you see of Mr Duggan then? You saw
19 him coming out at a pace?
20 A. Yes, he's jumped out at pace and initially he's facing
21 towards W42, and then at that time I'm getting out of my
22 vehicle and I'm -- I take a couple of steps towards and
23 I've got my MP5 in the off-aim ready position.
24 Q. There's a box marked "A" there, what does that
1 A. That represents the area roughly where I would have been
3 Q. So, again, let's take a snapshot: W42, before the door
4 slides, is close by that door, is he?
5 A. He would be -- can I point?
6 Q. Please.
7 A. Again, I cannot be precise, but he would have been
8 (indicates) somewhere along there, I believe.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Perhaps you can say where he's
10 pointing, I can't see.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: Somewhere around the front quarter of the
12 minicab, on the pavement.
13 A. Yes, sir, yes.
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Are you pointing that he's gone
15 forward from the door that he got out of?
16 A. No, he would not be past the sliding door, but I think
17 he was somewhere on the pavement, sort of near, maybe,
18 the engine block of the minicab. Again, I cannot be
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The engine being at the front of the
21 minicab, so he's gone past where the word "mini" is,
22 then gone forward to the front of the minicab firstly?
23 A. Yes, I think he's towards the front, so the engine block
24 of the minicab, I believe, sort of within that rough
25 area. But again, sir, I cannot be precise exactly where
1 he was.
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I understand.
3 MR UNDERWOOD: You are somewhere around the box marked "A"
4 on that plan?
5 A. Yes, sir, yes.
6 Q. Mr Duggan is coming out with a spring in his step.
7 We've all got experience of that minicab or replica of
8 the minicab and how easy or difficult it is to get out.
9 The experience, I think, is that you pretty much have to
10 contort yourself to get out.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. What was his stance?
13 A. Again, he turned to face W42, I can't really say what
14 stance, he was sort of -- I think his knees were maybe
15 slightly bent so -- but I cannot really give you any
16 more than that because his back was towards me at that
18 Q. Then what happened?
19 A. At that time, as I'm in an off-aim ready position,
20 I've -- W42 has shouted "Armed police" -- "Stand still,
21 stand still" and at the same time I've shouted "Armed
23 Q. What did Mr Duggan do?
24 A. At that time he turned to face me. I don't know if he
25 turned left or to his right but Mr Duggan has done like
1 a pivot movement and he's turned to face me. So at that
2 time, if I could describe it, I'm in an off-aim
3 position, I've got lovely peripheral vision over the top
4 and I'm taking everything in.
5 Q. Over the top of what?
6 A. Over the sight. The weapon is slightly down, so I'm
7 looking across everything so I'm trying to take
8 everything in.
9 Q. Had he actually parted from the minicab or did he have
10 one foot on it or what?
11 A. No he was out of the minicab.
12 Q. How far out, do you think?
13 A. I don't know, sir, not very far.
14 Q. Okay. Then what happened?
15 A. The only way I can describe it is like a freeze frame
16 moment. You know, it's like if you've got Sky Plus or
17 a video recorder, it's where you start pausing things,
18 and in my head the world had stopped because as he's
19 turned to face me, where I had lovely peripheral vision
20 my focus turned immediately to what was in his hand.
21 Q. How was he holding his hand?
22 A. Again, may I stand up?
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Yes, please, yes.
24 A. As he's turned to face me, he has an object in his right
25 hand (indicates), Mark Duggan is carrying a handgun in
1 his right hand. I can see the handle of the weapon,
2 I can make out the trigger guard, I can make out the
3 barrel and it's side-on to his body and there's a black
4 sock covering that weapon.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Can you just turn round with your
6 hand in the position?
7 A. Like this (indicates).
8 MR UNDERWOOD: What you are describing is right arm close in
9 by the chest, elbow bent, right hand across your
10 chest -- across your stomach, really.
11 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Across your stomach, over your
12 navel, isn't it?
13 A. It is. Side-on to his stomach and the weapon is
14 parallel to the floor.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: I don't know whether we have that gun in its
16 sock now?
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We'll come back to that, I think.
18 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps you could have your Glock back -- not
19 your Glock, a Glock back. (Handed)
20 A. (Indicates)
21 Q. So the gun was being held without the finger in the
22 trigger guard?
23 A. I don't recall, I just remember he was holding it with
24 his right hand. Again, you can make out the shape
25 outline of it, the handle of it, the barrel, you could
1 make out the trigger guard, not visually, but again if
2 you image it going as a L-shape, the sock, there's like
3 a little bit of give in it, so that's where the trigger
4 guard would have been, and obviously the size of the
5 object was similar size to my side arm.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: Again, can I have that please because I am on
7 camera and you are not?
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Please. I'll ask Mr Underwood just
9 to imitate that. (Handed)
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Thanks. You're describing this, I think; is
11 that fair (indicates)?
12 A. Slightly lower down, sir. The barrel is more parallel
13 to the floor and the elbow is kind of more tucked in.
14 Q. Like that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. (Indicates) So it's aiming left?
17 A. It is, yes.
18 Q. Despite the fact there's a sock on it, you think his
19 hand has gripped the grip rather than -- not doing that
21 A. No, he was holding that weapon.
22 Q. But not like that, with his finger in the trigger?
23 A. I do not remember where his top finger is, his trigger
24 finger was.
25 Q. Thanks. (Handed)
1 Can you help us about what his stance was then?
2 A. If I recall, his knees were slightly bent (indicates).
3 He was not standing up straight and proud but he wasn't
4 fully bent down as well, if that makes sense.
5 Q. Okay, yes. What about his relationship with you? Was
6 he square on to you or three-quarters on or sideways on
7 or what?
8 A. Again, I cannot be precise because, you know, this is
9 happening in seconds but he was facing me, he may have
10 been slightly to the left of me, but, again, I can't be
11 100 per cent precise.
12 Q. Broadly speaking, upright and, broadly speaking, square
13 on to you; would that be fair?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Moving?
16 A. Again, the only way I can describe this moment is the
17 world has just stopped in my head, it's like a freeze
18 frame moment and, again, the only thing I was focused on
19 was the gun.
20 Q. Right. What did you do?
21 A. Again, because he was carrying it like this (indicates),
22 again I've assessed and at that time he's not posing
23 a threat to me. So, again, I'm hoping he's going to
24 drop it or he's going to do something. Again, this is
25 happening in milliseconds but then the next thing he
1 does, he starts to move the gun away from his body
3 Q. The way you are describing that is that all you're
4 moving is your wrist; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So he was not flinging his arm out --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- or flexing his elbow?
9 A. No, in this movement. So he's moved the weapon, the
10 barrel, he raised the weapon (indicates), moved it
11 a couple of inches away from his body.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Can you turn round a little bit so
13 I can see as well?
14 A. Sorry, sir.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: You used the word raised but it's not been
16 raised up, it's being brought out.
17 A. I would use the word "raised" because it describes
18 a movement in my head. So to me he's raised it.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: He's swinging it around, out from
20 his body, but the hand still remains on his stomach.
21 MR UNDERWOOD: He's, at that stage, still square on to you?
22 A. Yes, still square on.
23 Q. What did you do then?
24 A. Again because -- the only way I can describe this,
25 there's a line in the sand now or there's a tipping
1 point. If Mr Duggan had left the gun like this I would
2 have hoped he would have dropped it, but because he's
3 moved it away from his body I now have an honest held
4 belief he's going to shoot me, because by moving away
5 from his body he can do this (indicates) or he can do
6 this (indicates) in a fraction of a second, whereby
7 I had an honest held belief that he was going to shoot
9 Q. What you have just demonstrated there is that either he
10 could raise his arm up, so it is parallel to the ground,
11 and aim the gun at you and shoot you or he can just
12 swing --
13 A. He could swing it like this, sir, yes.
14 Q. -- the gun further round and shoot you with his elbow
15 still crooked against his chest, yes?
16 A. Indeed, sir, yes.
17 Q. What then did happen?
18 A. Again -- because, again, the tipping point or the line
19 in the sand -- because he's actually moved it away from
20 his body, I have a honest held belief he's going to
21 shoot me. So I had my MP5 in an off-aim ready position
22 and -- again this is happening in a split second.
23 So again I brought my weapon up (indicates) and I've
24 discharged one round and I'm aiming for the central body
25 mass because I'm looking to shoot to stop, to achieve --
1 basically stop the threat. So I've discharged one
3 Q. Did you see that impact on him?
4 A. I did, sir, yes.
5 Q. Then what happened?
6 A. Again, if I may describe, sir. (Indicates) the gun is
7 initially like this, the round has impacted Mr Duggan on
8 his right chest and it's caused like a flinching
10 Q. You have described there him flinching with his right
11 shoulder away from you?
12 A. If that's -- yes (indicates).
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Again, it's very important the jury
14 see firstly, but it's also quite important that I see as
16 A. So, sir, as I say, he's moved the gun barrel away from
17 his body a couple of inches I've discharged one round,
18 which has impacted on his chest, which has caused like
19 a flinching movement, and then the gun has now moved and
20 is now pointing towards my direction.
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Flinching movement is the right
22 shoulder going sharply back?
23 A. It is, sir, yes, from the impact of the round.
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: So whereabouts are you saying this
25 round had impacted.
1 A. On his right chest.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Again, can I have the gun back and I'll, with
3 your guidance, do that so that it can be seen on the
4 camera. (Indicates) so starting from down here
5 somewhere (indicates), you see --
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. -- a round go in around there.
8 A. Right chest, yes.
9 Q. He flinches that way away (indicates)?
10 A. Yes, but the gun has come out.
11 Q. So he has moved the gun out towards you before you
12 fired, the round hits him up there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He flinches away?
15 A. I wouldn't say he's flinched that much.
16 Q. He reacts away, right shoulder away from you and the gun
17 is now trained more towards you.
18 A. It is indeed, sir, yes.
19 Q. (Handed)
20 Thanks very much. Then what happened?
21 A. Again, I've reassessed what's happening in front of me,
22 so again -- this is happening, probably, in a second,
23 everyone. So the round has impacted on his chest, it's
24 now -- the gun is now pointing towards me, so again I'm
25 thinking he's going to shoot me. So, again, because
1 I've got an honest held belief he's going to shoot me or
2 one of my colleagues and I have reassessed the threat
3 and I've discharged a second round from my MP5, which
4 appeared to impact on his right arm -- or right bicep,
5 shall I say, sorry.
6 Q. Okay. Did you see how his jacket was being worn?
7 A. All I remember was his jacket was open.
8 Q. Would it be fair to say you were focused on the gun?
9 A. Again, the only way I can describe this is a freeze
10 frame moment, is where you are just focused on what's
11 going to cause you harm. Whereas initially I had lovely
12 vision, but once the gun is in Mark Duggan's hand, my
13 focus is just glued on the gun and what that gun is
14 going to do to me.
15 Q. How did it get over the railings?
16 A. I don't know, sir, I would love to be able to answer
17 that question.
18 Q. Help us as best you can.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Before that question -- I was hoping
20 the question might have been a bit more neutral: what
21 happened to the gun?
22 A. Sir, the next time I look to reassess, the gun wasn't
23 there. So in the course of like a split second, one
24 second the gun is there and the next second, when
25 I looked and reassessed the gun is not there because
1 I think Mr Duggan would have been falling backwards at
2 that time.
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You're focusing on him, you are
4 looking at him all the time you are not looking away or
6 A. No.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Suddenly the gun disappears.
8 A. It did, sir, yes. Again, sir, it's happened so quick.
9 If you imagine, this is happening in a split second, one
10 second it was there and the next second when I looked
11 thankfully he wasn't pointing at me.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: What was he doing?
13 A. I think he was -- I can't remember exactly but he was
14 falling backwards.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Did he fall forwards first or did he fall
16 backwards first?
17 A. Again, I cannot be precise because at that time I've
18 given a big loud shout of "Shots fired, shots fired"
19 because I wanted to let everyone know that I've actually
20 engaged Mr Duggan and I just remember him falling
21 backwards and officers converging on him.
22 Q. Is it your evidence, be clear about this, that he had
23 the gun in his hand from the moment you saw him turn
24 towards you?
25 A. Absolutely.
1 Q. He had that gun in his hand while you fired both shots?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. But it suddenly wasn't there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you become aware that W42 had been shot?
6 A. Yes. After I said "Shots fired, shots fired", because
7 I'm a medic, my role then becomes to provide first aid,
8 because we've got a casualty now, the threat is
9 neutralised, in police terms but again -- in layman's
10 terms, there's no gun threat there at the minute. But
11 now we have a casualty, so my role as a medic is now to
12 provide first aid. However, at that time, W42 goes "I'm
13 hit, I'm hit".
14 Q. What did you do?
15 A. (Pause)
16 It's something that I'll never forget to be honest
17 because he's a mate of mine and I went over to him
18 and --
19 MR STERN: Sorry to interrupt but --
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think we might have a break now,
22 MR STERN: Whether we have a break or not, if people feel
23 they are not able to listen to this evidence -- this is
24 evidence that is anticipated in statements and indeed
25 heard before. If people feel they cannot listen to it,
1 then it is an option that they can listen to it in
2 another room.
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Mr Stern, I am not going to clear
4 the court.
5 MR STERN: I am not asking that.
6 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Those who are there are allowed to
7 be there. This is a highly important piece of evidence,
8 clearly, and I think we all understand the nature of it.
9 MR STERN: Absolutely.
10 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I'm sorry that I was perhaps
11 thinking of having a break at some good point and if
12 I had only thought about it a few moments before we
13 might have stopped that last little outburst, but in any
14 event, I think probably I would like us just to press on
15 with the evidence just for a few more questions so we
16 just deal with this part of the account of V53 and then
17 we'll have a short break.
18 But, by you standing up, I think probably everyone
19 has now calmed down enough for us to go on and then have
20 the break. I know that those at the back of court will
21 understand that they must try to restrain any outbursts,
22 please, whilst a witness is giving evidence. It's only
23 fair to the witness that should be done.
24 Mr Underwood, can we just finish off that piece of
25 evidence before we go on to the next stage of the
2 MR UNDERWOOD: You realise W42 had been shot.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He was a friend of yours, yes; what did you do?
5 A. Again, I knew Mark Duggan never fired at us, that's --
6 we knew that straight away. He never fired at us, so
7 obviously two rounds had been discharged, I fired both
8 of them and I'm thinking -- I do not want to use
9 industrial language, but I'm thinking "Oh, damn, one of
10 my rounds has over-penetrated and hit one of my friends
11 and colleagues".
12 Q. Who did you go to first?
13 A. I've gone to him.
14 Q. What did you do?
15 A. Again, the only way I can describe this is his knees
16 started to go -- I sort of call it an "Elvis" because
17 his knees started to buckle under him, his face was
18 initially red, but you could see the white just go down
19 his face.
20 So I've grabbed him and I've put him down against
21 the fence line, telling him to "Man up" and, you know,
22 a bit of cop humour, to be honest with you, as I'm
23 cutting his clothes off, because I'm looking for
24 a bullet wound now. So I'm saying his name, "You're
25 going to be okay mate, don't worry, don't worry", as I'm
1 ripping his clothes off, getting his body armour off and
2 I'm looking for basically a bullet wound in him.
3 Q. Did you satisfy himself he was not wounded?
4 A. Touch wood, the round was in his radio and there was no
5 obvious penetration in him.
6 Q. Help us with the relative heights of things here.
7 Compared with you, was W42 tall or shorter?
8 A. He would have been shorter.
9 Q. Very much shorter?
10 A. Probably six -- probably five or six inches, perhaps.
11 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: How tall are you?
12 A. 6'2".
13 MR UNDERWOOD: Whereabouts on his body did that round
15 A. It would have been where he had his radio, which would
16 have been his left side.
17 Q. You are indicating about halfway up his chest, on the
18 left side.
19 A. Yes, on the left side, sir, yes.
20 Q. Around the rib cage on the left?
21 A. Indeed, sir, yes.
22 Q. Having satisfied yourself about that, did you go back to
23 Mr Duggan?
24 A. I did indeed, yes. Again, my role is a medic. I've
25 satisfied myself that W42 has no life threatening
1 injuries, so I've dealt with W42 for around two minutes.
2 I've then gone back to Mark Duggan who's a casualty now
3 and needs attention.
4 Q. What did you do?
5 A. At that time, two of my colleagues had his jacket and
6 upper body -- upper clothing taken off -- so again, I've
7 knelt down and I've done -- I don't know if you've heard
8 the term "Dr's ABC" in first aid. So D is for "danger";
9 R for "responsive"; A for "airway"; B for "breathing"; C
10 for circulation. So we call this a primary survey.
11 So I've done a primary survey and at that time
12 Mr Duggan is breathing. However, now I'm looking for
13 bullet wounds.
14 So again I've found one bullet wound in his right
15 chest and I've also found a bullet wound in his right
16 arm. So, at that time, I've got black nasty tape,
17 initially, to seal those wounds. So once those wounds
18 are sealed, I then do another survey.
19 By that time, he then goes -- sorry, let me go back
20 a bit. Plasters, Dr's ABC -- I've assured myself
21 there's no other bullet wounds, then I've asked
22 colleagues "Can you get me an Asherman dressing?"
23 because it's a sucking chest wound, so someone has
24 handed me an Asherman chest wound (sic), that's been
25 replaced on his right chest and another dressing was
1 then replaced on his right arm.
2 Q. Pausing there, was your impression about two minutes
3 after the shooting that he was still alive; is that
5 A. He was breathing, there were signs of life, I would say.
6 Q. Voluntarily or was that as a result of the CPR?
7 A. At that time we had not started CPR because he was
8 still -- I would class it responsive -- again,
9 I appreciate there's family here. It was maybe like
10 a (makes sound) sound.
11 Q. Having conducted your survey and used the tape, what
12 happened then?
13 A. Again once, I've used the black tape, I've reassessed
14 and then we've redressed those wounds with an Asherman
15 chest seal and another dressing for his arm.
16 Q. Did CPR start then?
17 A. No, not yet, sir. At that time I'm looking for signs of
18 life and then Mark Duggan goes unresponsive, so again as
19 part of the "Dr ABC" we are looking for response now.
20 So initially there was no alertness on voice. I've then
21 nipped his ears because we're looking for pain response
22 and there's no pain response. So that casualty is now
24 So I've tilted his head back and now I'm trying to
25 put down what we call an oropharyngeal airway tube down
1 his throat because I wanted to assist his airway -- can
2 I call it an OP airway?
3 So I've put an OP airway down his throat because
4 I want to keep his airway open, but he's done a retching
5 sound, (makes sound). So again, part of our SOP is to
6 remove that airway straightaway. I then checked if he's
7 breathing but he's unresponsive at that time and then
8 I've started doing CPR and I've started doing the chest
10 Q. Did you carry on doing that until the ambulance, or
11 rather the paramedic, arrived?
12 A. Yes, we did. As I say, I was doing chest compressions,
13 a colleague of mine was doing the blowing in the mouth,
14 I believe W70 was there as well. As we're doing chest
15 compressions I was aware that we've started filming the
16 scene. As well as that, we then found another wound on
17 his back, which we believed to be an exit wound so,
18 again, we've moved Mr Duggan on his side and we've
19 placed another Asherman dressing on his back and then we
20 placed him back down.
21 I continued doing chest compressions, at one time
22 I thought there was a sign of life so I've actually --
23 I haven't said "Stop", I've said "Hang on there
24 a second". I've listened for breaths, one of my
25 colleagues has checked for a pulse and he said "We've
1 got a pulse". So again, that was, like, great, this is
2 working, you know, we're actually doing some good work
3 here. Then as we keep doing chest compressions --
4 I think I worked on him for, I don't know, maybe ten
5 minutes, until the first paramedic turns up.
6 Q. Did you then hand over to the paramedic?
7 A. Yes. A female paramedic turned up and we do what's
8 called a structured hand over because initially that
9 casualty is my responsibility. Once I hand over to the
10 paramedic, that's her responsibility. So I've given --
11 you have probably heard of mnemonics all through the
12 last couple of weeks, but the mnemonic is "Ash Ice": A
13 is the age of the casualty, sex, the history, the
14 injuries and the conscious state.
15 So basically I've given a verbal handover that this
16 male is between 25 and 30, I believe, he's been shot
17 twice, he's been unresponsive, CPR has commenced,
18 something to that effect.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: Perhaps that's a convenient moment.
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We'll have a break at that point.
21 A. Thank you, sir.
22 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Just stay there for a moment while
23 I ask the cameras upstairs to be turned off then,
24 members of the jury, if you would like to leave us for
25 ten minutes.
16 (11.57 am)
17 (A short break)
18 (12.22 pm)
13 (In the presence of the jury)
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Then if we can have the witness
16 As you'll notice, those members of the jury in the
17 back row, you have two smaller screens now to replace
18 the larger one which we cannot revive for the moment so
19 that's what we'll have to deal with for today. Thank
21 We have the witness coming back into court.
22 (The witness returned into court)
23 V53 (continued)
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you very much. We can have
25 a the cameras turned back on.
1 V53 you are still under the affirmation that you
2 took before and we'll take up your account where we left
4 MR UNDERWOOD: Officer, you handed the CPR over to the
5 paramedic. While you were doing CPR, were you aware
6 that a firearm in a sock had been found?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. Did you see it?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I think you gave an account to an Inspector, Inspector
11 Elliott, at the scene; is that right?
12 A. Indeed, sir, I gave one at 18.50.
13 Q. Can we have a look at that, CD1042, on screen; is that
14 in your writing or his?
15 A. No, it's his writing and I've signed it.
16 Q. Can you read it?
17 A. Yes:
18 "I got out of Charlie car. Subject got out of the
19 rear nearside of taxi holding gun shaped item in sock in
20 his hand. Began to raise it up in my direction.
21 I fired several shots."
22 That's signed by me, V53, 4/8/2011 at 18.50.
23 Q. So within 40 minutes, at the outside, of the shooting?
24 A. If the shooting occurred at 18.13, there or thereabouts,
25 I think life was pronounced dead at 18.41, so nine
1 minutes after life was pronounced extinct.
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: This was at the scene you gave this
4 A. Yes.
5 MR UNDERWOOD: Why do you say "I fired several shots"?
6 A. Because at that time, obviously I've just had a gun
7 pointed at me, so I was -- I wouldn't say -- I wanted to
8 give an account at the scene to help the investigation
9 because I wanted to be open and transparent straight
10 away but, again, you know, your head is all over the
11 place, you've just been involved in a traumatic incident
12 so I didn't want to tie myself down to say "Yes, I've
13 definitely fired two", when I check later in my mind
14 a couple of hours later, I may have actually fired more.
15 So the reason I said "I fired several shots" was
16 I wasn't 100 per cent sure I fired two at that time.
17 Q. There was a degree of uncertainty in your mind about
18 whether you fired more than two shots?
19 A. No, I would not say "uncertainty", I was still running
20 through things, through my head -- again, this account
21 is normally given by somebody other than the principal
22 officer, as in the shooter. It should be somebody other
23 than me. But I was quite comfortable in myself,
24 I wanted to help the investigation at the earliest
25 opportunity. So by giving this very brief verbal
1 account, I knew later on that night I would be giving
2 another account and again in 48 hours I would be giving
3 a more detailed account, so I didn't want to say
4 something that I wasn't 100 per cent clear in my mind at
5 that time, if that makes sense.
6 Q. Almost, but let me chase this down: would it be fair to
7 say you were not 100 per cent clear that you had only
8 fired two shots?
9 A. I would probably say I was 99.999 per cent sure but
10 I just wanted to have a bit of thinking time, I suppose.
11 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: So that means you are 100 per cent
12 sure about everything else on that note?
13 A. Absolutely, sir. Absolutely, yes.
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: All right.
15 MR UNDERWOOD: Then you went back, I think, to Leman Street
16 Police Station?
17 A. I did, sir, yes.
18 Q. You did a count back of your ammunition, did you?
19 A. I did, sir, yes.
20 Q. By that point, presumably you had worked out that only
21 two rounds were missing?
22 A. Yes. Again, in the nicest possible way, you are
23 constantly running things through your head and then
24 I cannot remember exactly what time the count back was,
25 I think from -- I think it may have been 11.30 that
1 night. I think it was with some IPCC investigators and
2 maybe some professional standards. You do a count back,
3 so you hand your weapons back to them but you take the
4 magazine out and you count the bullets back.
5 So on the long magazine, I should have had 26,
6 I started with 26, and I counted back 24. So at that
7 time I was 100 per cent sure that only two rounds were
9 Q. There's no room for doubt about this is there because
10 you sign out the number --
11 A. Absolutely, sir, yes.
12 Q. -- and you sign back in?
13 A. I do indeed sir, yes.
14 Q. Can we have a look at your notebook at CD0006. I don't
15 know whether you have a copy of it there?
16 A. I have a photocopy, I'm probably missing some of it,
17 sir, but I've got my part of it.
18 Q. Very well.
19 MR GLASSON: We do have the original here?
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Mr Glasson, thank you very much.
21 It's much better to have the original if at all
23 A. Fantastic, sir, thank you. (Handed)
24 Thank you, sir.
25 MR UNDERWOOD: We see there are numbers in the top
1 right-hand corner. If we look at page 33 of the top
2 numbering, it's our page 6.
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. We see that you start this on 4 August at 22.40; is that
6 A. I do indeed, sir, yes.
7 Q. Just going over the page, picking it up on the third
9 "The vehicle was stopped and I deployed from my
10 covert armed response vehicle. The subject got out of
11 the rear nearside of the target vehicle. I shouted
12 'Armed police'. He turned in my direction. My focus
13 immediately then turned to an object which I honestly
14 believed to be a firearm. He began to raise it up and
15 having a honest held belief that he was about to shoot
16 me or my colleagues, I discharged a number of rounds
17 hitting the subject."
18 Is that what that says?
19 A. It does indeed, sir, yes.
20 Q. I just want to ask you a few questions on this. In the
21 middle of that page you say:
22 "He turned in my direction. My focus immediately
23 turned to an object which I honestly believed to be
24 a firearm."
25 Were you sure it was a gun?
1 A. Yes, I was, sir, yes.
2 Q. Why do you say "honestly believed"; that looks like
3 a qualification, doesn't it?
4 A. No, it's not, sir, no. The way I mean honestly is --
5 "honestly" means truthfully, so I want to really
6 over-emphasise my honesty that it was definitely
7 a firearm, so in order to emphasise my sincerity of the
8 fact that I honestly believed it to be a firearm,
9 I truthfully believed it to be a firearm and that's why
10 I used that phrase.
11 Q. Were you worried about your sincerity being challenged?
12 A. Absolutely not, sir, no. Again, sir, these are my notes
13 from my recollection and that's why I used the phrase
15 Q. All of this is accurate, is it?
16 A. Absolutely, sir, yes.
17 Q. Then, further down, after:
18 "He began to raise it up and having a honest held
19 belief that he was about to shoot me or my
20 colleagues ..."
21 Which colleague could he have shot?
22 A. He could have shot W70 who was behind me.
23 Q. Did you know he was behind you?
24 A. I would have -- again, how we sit in the Charlie car
25 would be -- I would be the operator front nearside, W70,
1 who's the Hatton gunner, he would be sat behind me, so
2 I knew, because obviously this is a tried and tested
3 tactic, he would have been coming behind me because his
4 role -- he would have a shotgun and that shotgun is to
5 disable tyres, not to use as a weapon, as such. So
6 I knew he would have been behind me somewhere.
7 Q. Right. Then:
8 "... I discharged a number of rounds ..."
9 By this stage you had done the count back.
10 A. No, sir, I hadn't.
11 Q. Forgive me, you just told me you did?
12 A. No, I think the count back happened at 23.30 from what
13 I can --
14 Q. Can we go back to the statement we looked at earlier on,
15 CS78. The paragraph but one at the bottom, the last
16 four lines of that:
17 "I was present and carried out a count back of
18 rounds in my magazine. In my MP5 long magazine there
19 were 24 rounds. I then made initial notes in
20 an evidence and action book."
21 A. Again, when I done that statement I think I made
22 an error because the timing -- I didn't have the time of
23 the count back. I'm led to believe the count back
24 happened at 23.30, so I would've done the notes prior to
25 me actually doing the initial account. So I think
1 that's an error on my part because I didn't have --
2 bearing in mind that statement you're talking about was
3 done 12 months after the incident happened.
4 Q. The statement I'm talking about was made on
5 7 August 2011, officer.
6 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That's your big full one.
7 MR STERN: I don't know if I can assist my learned friend in
8 this regard.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I'm sure you can.
10 MR STERN: It he looks at CD05, he'll see, if it focuses in
11 a little nearer, that the notes were completed at 22, it
12 looks like, 50.
13 If we then go to CD --
14 MR UNDERWOOD: I am not challenging this, I'm challenging
15 the records at the moment, in the statement that I'm
16 taking the officer to, as opposed to what --
17 MR STERN: Let's look at the record, CD97.
18 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Sorry, Mr Underwood -- sorry, CD97.
19 MR STERN: CD97. The firearm -- I think the top bit is
20 missing, but firearm and ammunition reconciliation form
21 is timed at 11.30 so that's the point the officer is
22 making, I think.
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you very much for that.
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's go back to the statement you made on
25 7 August --
1 A. Okay, sir.
2 Q. -- 2011, not a year after the incident --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. -- which I have just read to you?
5 A. Sir, I think I probably got mixed up because the timings
6 are mentioned in a statement I done 12 months later, so
7 that was very confusing on my part.
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Don't worry. There's lots of
9 statements. Let's concentrate on this one, your main
10 statement, on 7 August.
11 A. Sorry, sir.
12 MR UNDERWOOD: The answer is, in short, is it, that when you
13 made your statement on 7 August, you got this wrong?
14 A. Sorry, can I just read it, sorry, just to refresh my
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Yes.
17 A. Sorry. (Pause)
18 I think in this statement, sir, I don't actually
19 mention what time the count back actually happened.
20 Q. It's not a great big point, officer.
21 A. Sorry, maybe I'm --
22 Q. In the statement you say I carried out the count back
23 I then made initial notes in my book.
24 A. I do apologise. That's an error on my part then, sir.
25 Q. In making the statement on 7 August?
1 A. I do apologise.
2 Q. Let's just get this clear then. When you did make your
3 notebook entry you still weren't 100 per cent sure you
4 had only fired two shots?
5 A. Again, I wanted confirmation from the count back, if
6 that makes sense.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You are 99.999 per cent sure at the
8 scene and now we're a number of hours later --
9 A. No, I still --
10 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- you're still not 100 per cent.
11 A. No, I just want that little, I suppose, icing on the
12 cake, for a better phrase, just to make sure that I did
13 because obviously I'm aware of perceptional distortion,
14 you may have -- forget things or -- again, the shooting
15 is a big jigsaw, if I can explain it like that.
16 Obviously there might be bits missing and you are just
17 trying to remember back bits, if that makes sense.
18 I hope I explained that okay.
19 MR UNDERWOOD: I want to move on. In the period between the
20 shooting taking place and you making your statement on
21 7 August, the statement we have just been looking at --
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. -- did you talk to any of the other team members about
24 what had happened?
25 A. No, sir.
1 Q. At all?
2 A. No.
3 Q. We've heard that this team operated as a unit generally;
4 is that fair?
5 A. Again, I don't want to go into, you know, how many teams
6 there are of us. However, it was a mixed team that day.
7 Primarily it was one team and I was actually the other
8 team and I was staffing up that day but I would work
9 with them quite regularly.
10 Q. W42 was a friend, for example?
11 A. Yes, he was, yes.
12 Q. Did you know W70?
13 A. Yes, I didn't know him that well because he's quite new
14 to the team and the department but, yes, I know him.
15 Q. This was a very significant event, wasn't it?
16 A. Absolutely. One I'll never forget, sir.
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Mixed teams. Two teams mixed?
18 A. There's -- again we need to supply -- for a MASTS
19 operation we would need to supply one Sergeant and ten
20 PCs so, obviously, because of maybe annual leave or
21 other commitments, the primary team may only have, we
22 say, one Sergeant and seven PCs so the other team would
23 man up or staff up and I was staffing up that day, to
24 make up the numbers, if that makes sense.
25 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You were?
1 A. Yes.
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: So you were the one adding on the
4 A. The other team, so to speak, yes, sir.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: So Q63, was he --
6 A. He was part of the other team. If there's two teams,
7 for example, I would be team one; they would be team
8 two. I hope I'm not confusing the ...
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That's all right. Thank you.
10 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's just go through this again. You were
11 saying it's a day you'll never forget.
12 A. Absolutely, sir, yes.
13 Q. Not only had you shot a man who then died, but you had
14 managed to over-penetrate one of those shots and shoot
15 another officer.
16 A. Absolutely, sir, yes.
17 Q. Both of these were unique in your experience, were they
19 A. Yes, and hopefully will never, ever happen again, sir.
20 Q. And obviously this became a very notorious event within
21 days, didn't it?
22 A. It did indeed, sir, yes.
23 Q. Nobody would blame you, I suspect, if you talked about
24 the events in general to other officers, either in your
25 team or in the team you were manning up for. Are you
1 saying you just didn't discuss it at all?
2 A. No. Again, sir, I probably get the impression you are
3 probably edging towards conferring --
4 Q. I'm just asking you about discussing the thing in
5 general, officer.
6 A. Again, I'm a professional officer, I know the rules
7 around conferring and things; you are not allowed to
8 discuss. This is a big deal, a shooting. Thankfully,
9 it does not happen very often in London. So it would
10 not be something I would jeopardise by discussing with
11 other officers.
12 I'm aware, obviously, there's disorder going on and,
13 to be honest with you, that's probably another reason
14 not to discuss it because ... you know, the Duggan
15 family didn't start the riots, I didn't start the riots
16 but, you know, we can't ignore the fact that London and
17 the country is burning sort of because of, to a certain
18 degree, what happened.
19 Q. Let's just take W42. You saw him when he got back from
20 hospital, didn't you?
21 A. I did, that night sir, yes, I did.
22 Q. What did you say to him?
23 A. I gave him a massive hug. It was such a relief to see
25 Q. Did you say, "Sorry"?
1 A. I just said -- very cop -- "Are you okay?" and he just
2 laughed and we just hugged.
3 Q. Let me just ask you now about how your account sits with
4 the scientific evidence. Let me see if I've got this
6 On your account, when you were firing the first
7 shot, Mr Duggan was pretty well square on to you?
8 A. Yes, there or thereabouts.
9 Q. Perhaps slightly to the left but basically square on.
10 That he had the gun across his chest and was, as you
11 say, raising it, but bringing it out using his wrist?
12 A. Correct, sir, yes.
13 Q. That he was pretty much upright.
14 A. Yes, there might have been -- his knees might have been
15 bent ever so slightly, but, yes. I cannot be exactly
17 Q. Between the two shots, he had moved his right shoulder
18 away from you?
19 A. Yes, he's there -- after the second -- once the first
20 round impacted, it caused that flinching movement.
21 Q. Now, can we have a look at CD29922. It will come up on
23 What's happened here is that scientists have got
24 a replica of the jacket, maybe a different colour.
25 A. Okay, sir.
1 Q. They've replicated the bullet holes and the wound tracks
2 in the mannequin. Have you seen this before?
3 A. I've seen it in newspapers, sir, but ...
4 Q. What you see is two rods, which are called trajectory
5 rods, which you may know about. Trajectory rod marked
6 "Y" is the shot that goes through, basically, the bicep;
7 do you follow?
8 A. Okay, sir, yes.
9 Q. Trajectory rod "X" is the fatal shot, the one that goes
10 into Mr Duggan's chest and comes out his back.
11 A. Okay, sir, yes.
12 Q. Can you explain how there are differences between the
13 two shots in terms of horizontal axis.
14 A. I can't sir. As I say, my recollection at the time --
15 bear in mind this is happening within a second at the
16 very most -- was the first round impacted his chest,
17 albeit I wouldn't have seen it penetrate him, if that
18 makes sense, and, again, my recollection at the time was
19 that the second round hit his arm. However, can I be
20 100 per cent sure in a split second? I can't be.
21 Q. No. You are not, either, answering the question I asked
23 A. I do apologise, sorry.
24 Q. Not at all. Let me be clear so it's fair to you. What
25 I'm asking you about at the moment -- never mind which
1 shot was first or second -- is how it is that one of
2 them is more or less horizontal and one of them is going
3 down at an angle?
4 A. Sorry, I cannot explain that.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Can I ask you then: when you fired
6 the two shots --
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- had you moved your MP5 at all or
9 do you think you were very much in the same position?
10 A. No, sir, I think I was standing still because I wanted
11 to have a stable shooting platform because, you know,
12 you're more accurate when you stand still. So
13 I wouldn't have moved and I don't think I would have
14 moved the weapon because I would have kept the same
15 central -- the same point of aim, which would have been
16 his central body mass.
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: So the bullets are coming out of the
18 same place?
19 A. I would guess so sir, yes.
20 MR UNDERWOOD: The other angle of difference is shown at
21 CD30533; let's have a look at that.
22 Now, this is the trajectory rod coming out of the
23 back. What this reflects is that the chest shot goes in
24 on the right-hand side of Mr Duggan's chest and comes
25 out towards the left hand lower back. So never mind the
1 downward angle for the moment; there's also a right to
2 left angle, as far as he's concerned, so left to right
3 as far as you're concerned. Again, can you account for
5 A. No, sir. Again, my recollection is -- was where I was
6 standing. So I can't, sir.
7 Q. Because on no version of him being square on to you but
8 slightly to your left or him flinching away from -- his
9 right hand away from you, could that have happened,
10 could it?
11 A. Sir, again, I can't account for that. Obviously all
12 I can do, sir, is give you what my -- my perception at
13 the time was.
14 Q. Now let's look at the jacket. If we look at CD30532, if
15 we zoom in on this.
16 Ignore the hands if you can. This -- if we close in
17 even more -- shows a trajectory rod, we have just seen
18 the tip of it, going into the jacket.
19 A. Okay, sir, yes.
20 Q. What this reflects is the fact that the chest wound,
21 which is towards the right, upper part of Mr Duggan's
22 chest, caused two bullet holes in the lower left part of
23 the jacket. So something, whether his left hand, his
24 right hand, the wind or whatever it was, has caused the
25 jacket to go right up there. Can you account for that?
1 A. No. Again, sir -- I don't want to keep coming back to
2 this freeze frame moment but, again, the only tunnel
3 vision I had was his right hand and the gun in his hand.
4 So, no, sir, I cannot account for that.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: In your freeze frame moment, you've
6 got a moment of impact on his chest, haven't you?
7 A. Yes, yes. But I can't account for --
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: What was covering his chest?
9 A. Again, sir, I cannot remember. Because obviously I can
10 see from the jacket, you know, it's kind of like this
11 (indicates); is that what you're saying?
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.
13 A. I can't remember that. Again, my focus was on the gun.
14 MR UNDERWOOD: Your recall is that the jacket was open?
15 A. I remember it was open but, again, I can't tell you ...
16 anything else, sir.
17 Q. All right. Obviously, with the extensive checking and
18 first aid that you carried out, you accept that there
19 was a bullet wound in Mr Duggan's right bicep?
20 A. There was, sir, yes.
21 Q. We know one of your bullets, as you say, hit W42 in the
22 holster towards the left hand side of his rib cage, if
23 you like, or left-hand side midway down the rib cage?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. The other bullet; are you aware where that ended up?
1 A. Not at the time. I'm led to believe it ended up in the
2 minicab but, again, I don't know if it was this one or
3 whether it was the chest one or the arm one. But I'm
4 led to believe -- obviously as time went by, I became
5 aware that one of the bullets had ended up in the
7 Q. Now, bearing in mind what you recall about relative
8 positions, of you, W42 and Mr Duggan, can you account
9 for how the bullet ended up in the minicab?
10 A. No, I can't. Again, you can't -- I am not a ballistics
11 expert but you can't be precise where a bullet will
12 travel, with ricochets and so on and so forth. So, no,
13 I cannot account for that, sir, if that's the question
14 you're asking me.
15 Q. How do the shell casings eject from an MP5?
16 A. Again, when you bring the weapon up, the bullet goes out
17 of the barrel and then the casing comes out of the
18 ejector port and it flies in the air and then lands
20 Q. You are indicating to the right. Does it fly out to the
21 right-hand side of the gun?
22 A. Yes, it comes out to the right, yes.
23 Q. So, upper bit?
24 A. It would be elevated up because of energy within the
25 weapon system, so it would be flung in the air. And
1 again, it's fairly unpredictable where casings will land
2 and how they exit. But it comes out of the ejector
4 Q. On the right-hand side?
5 A. It does, sir, yes.
6 Q. What I want to do is put a hypothesis that could fit
7 what the scientists say.
8 A. Okay, sir.
9 Q. We have not heard the scientific evidence yet, and once
10 it's tested it may not support the hypothesis.
11 A. Okay, sir.
12 Q. To give you the fairest possible opportunity to deal
13 with it, I want to do it now. Is that all right?
14 A. Okay, sir, absolutely, yes.
15 Q. If you need time to think about any of this, then say
17 I want to suggest to you, first of all, that the
18 shot that was fired that hit W42 was more or less
19 horizontal; would you accept that?
20 A. Sorry, I do apologise, I just want to get this right.
21 Q. The shot that was fired that hit W42 in the radio was
22 more or less horizontal?
23 A. I don't know, sir.
24 Q. It went from roughly your arm pit level, didn't it, your
25 shoulder level?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. To a little below his arm pit?
3 A. Okay, I see what you're saying.
4 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Almost parallel with the ground.
5 A. Well, I presume so, sir, yes.
6 MR UNDERWOOD: What we're told by the scientists is that the
7 shot that went through Mr Duggan's bicep went through
8 more or less horizontally; do you follow?
9 A. Yes. Horizontal as well, okay.
10 Q. What I want to test with you, and this is the question
11 you were answering when I asked you a different one, is
12 how certain you are about which shot was which? Do you
14 A. Yes, I do. Again, I was asked by the IPCC probably
15 12 -- around a year ago -- the same question. And,
16 again, I thought long and hard about it, to be honest
17 with you, and I done a statement to that effect.
18 Again, my perception at the time was the first round
19 impacted on his right chest and the second round
20 impacted on his right arm. Can I be 100 per cent sure?
21 Can I be, you know, certain? No, I can't. Because
22 I never saw the rounds actually penetrate his body, if
23 that makes sense. And, again, you know, this is a fast
24 moving incident, this is happening in a split second.
25 I'm aware of, obviously, you know -- you know, I'm
1 a good marksman, on a nice range, in nice conditions,
2 you know, with no pressure on. You know, I'll hit the
3 target 99 times out of 100.
4 However, on this occasion, you know, I'm aware that
5 in real life scenarios you may not be as accurate, if
6 that makes sense.
7 Q. Stick with that scenario for the moment, the possibility
8 then that the first shot actually hit the bicep; all
10 A. Okay, sir.
11 Q. That would mean the chest shot, which is angled
12 downwards; do you follow?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is the second shot.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What that would suggest is that Mr Duggan was bending
17 forwards in some ways when he was hit with that shot.
18 A. Again, sir, my perception at the time is the first round
19 impacted his chest and the second one hit his arm.
20 Q. Whichever the order is, you cannot account for the angle
21 of the shot going downwards, can you?
22 A. No, I can't no. If that's what you're asking, sorry,
23 sir, I'm probably --
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It's the angle, don't worry about
25 the one and two. What's being put to you is that the
1 evidence may come later on from the scientists, because
2 of the angle of the rod through the body, that shows
3 that the angle of Mr Duggan's body when that bullet went
4 through his chest was in fact very much leaning down
5 towards you.
6 A. Okay, I cannot account for that then, sir.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: If it came from your gun at the same
8 position, then it would come through him, ending up
9 perhaps in the cab.
10 A. Okay, sir.
11 MR UNDERWOOD: If the order of shots was arm first, chest
12 second and the chest wound, as we know, is downwards,
13 with the jacket being caught up in that wound, what
14 I would suggest might have happened is this, and let's
15 see how you comment on it: that you shot him in the arm
16 first, he then flinched with his right shoulder
17 forwards, not back, and he went down somewhat and
18 brought the jacket up as if he's clasping his arm with
19 his left hand and catching the jacket with it.
20 A. No. Again, sir, my recollection at the time is, again,
21 first round here (indicates), the gun has come round and
22 then the second round has hit his arm. So I probably
23 disagree with you then, sir, if that's what you're
25 Q. In addition, I want to put this possibility to you: that
1 if, when he was shot in the bicep, he was holding his
2 arm close in to his chest and his elbow bent, as you've
3 described, that the damage to the bicep was likely to
4 mean he was going to drop his arm or drop the gun. What
5 would you say about that?
6 A. Sorry, I can't comment on that, to be honest.
7 I couldn't possibly comment on that.
8 Q. So a scenario that the medical evidence and scientific
9 evidence may suggest then is: the first shot is in the
10 arm, he flinches towards you and flinches downwards,
11 brings his left hand up as if to reach for that,
12 catching the jacket, and, with the damage to the arm,
13 not being able to use the gun; do you understand?
14 A. Yes. I disagree with that then, sir. Again, my
15 recollection at the time is what I've described
17 Q. Because if that had happened, that would not be
18 presenting a threat to you, would it?
19 A. Where the gun is?
20 Q. Yes. If he had been shot in the arm first, the gun arm,
21 had flinched forwards --
22 A. So where is the gun pointing now, sir?
23 Q. By this stage, his bicep has been damaged.
24 A. Right, okay. But he's still holding the gun, which is
25 still a threat.
1 Sir, maybe I'm getting a bit confused here, sir,
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think we ought to take a break.
4 I think what's happening, V53, and you would
5 understand this, is we are in this Inquest and we are
6 going through, hopefully in some form of order, dealing
7 with the business, the planning, the operation, then
8 working through what happened on the day at the very
9 time. This is why you are perhaps giving your evidence
10 in the middle of the Inquest. Then in a week or two's
11 time we will be hearing from the scientific and forensic
12 experts who are trying to reconstruct what you're
14 A. Indeed, sir.
15 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Mr Underwood, on my behalf really,
16 acting for the Inquest, is giving you an opportunity to
17 see whether there's any comment that you would like to
18 make from what we're expecting to hear rather than
19 asking you to sit at the back of the Inquest for weeks
20 and weeks and then say, "Well, you've heard what
21 Professor this or doctor this said about that; what do
22 you say".
23 A. Okay.
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: If there's any difficulties about
25 it, and if you are saying, "It doesn't matter what we
1 say, my memory is still this", then I understand that
2 and that will then be at least you being given a chance.
3 A. I appreciate that, sir.
4 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That's the sort of exercise we
5 are --
6 A. Thank you for explaining. Sorry, sir.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I didn't want to make you puzzled in
8 any way.
9 MR UNDERWOOD: Let's go back to that last question again,
10 and it is my last question.
11 If a man had been presenting, in the way Mr Duggan
12 was, according to you, before you fired at him at all --
13 yes -- and then you had fired a shot and he had then
14 grabbed his right shoulder with his left arm, catching
15 his jacket with it, flinched forward and flinched his
16 right shoulder towards you --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- would you have regarded him as still posing a threat?
19 A. It depends where the gun is, sir, to be honest. Because
20 the threat isn't how he's lunging, it's where the gun
21 is. And the gun is a threat.
22 Q. You are still satisfied, are you, the gun was in his
23 hand while you shot him both times?
24 A. It's 804 days since this happened and I'm 100 per cent
25 convinced he was in possession of a gun on shot one and
1 shot two.
2 MR UNDERWOOD: Very well. Thank you very much, officer.
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Would that be a convenient moment?
4 Yes, Mr Thomas? Anything you want to say or would
5 you want to say that when we break?
6 MR THOMAS: Can I just clarify one thing. Mr Underwood has
7 finished all of his questions now; is that right?
8 MR UNDERWOOD: Yes.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I wasn't going to put him on the
10 spot actually because a kind Judge never says, "Is that
11 it", just in case he thinks of something else over
12 lunch. So I was going to ask him at 2 o'clock, has he
13 finished. But he has now committed himself to finishing
14 his evidence, so when we start at 2 o'clock then I shall
15 be calling on those who represent the family to begin
16 such questions as they may wish to put to V53.
17 You stay there, I'll ask then for cameras to be
18 turned off. Members of the jury, thank you very much.
19 Members of the jury, if you would like to go for
20 an hour.
25 (1.05 pm)
1 (The short adjournment)
2 (2.00 pm)
3 (Proceedings delayed)
4 (2.06 pm)
20 (In the presence of the jury)
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We will have the witness, V53 then,
22 please, thank you.
23 (The witness returned into court)
24 V53 (continued)
25 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you very much, V53, you are
1 still under the oath you took before and I am just going
2 to check finally with Mr Underwood to see whether he
3 still has no questions.
4 MR UNDERWOOD: No more questions, thank you.
5 A. Thank you, sir.
6 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Mr Mansfield or Mr Thomas, you're
7 representing first family. Can we just make sure your
8 microphone is picking up everything you are saying?
9 Questions by MR THOMAS
10 MR THOMAS: Good afternoon, V53, I represent the loved ones
11 of Mark Duggan.
12 A. Hello, sir.
13 Q. V53, can I just go through some basics with you. Can
14 you hear me okay?
15 A. Just about, sir, yes.
16 Q. I will just try to move this a bit closer to me. Can
17 you hear me now?
18 A. I can, thank you, sir.
19 Q. All right. Let's start with your experience as a police
20 officer. When did you say you joined the Metropolitan
22 A. 1997, sir.
23 Q. Were you working as a police officer before then?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. So you came straight into the Met and that's when you
1 gained your first experience as a police officer; is
2 that right?
3 A. It was indeed, sir, yes.
4 Q. Okay. Again just one other question. Before starting
5 with the Metropolitan Police, did you have any
6 experience with firearms?
7 A. I was in the Territorial Army in -- somewhere else.
8 Q. Fine. Help us: how many years were you in the TA?
9 A. Probably around two and a half years, from what I can
11 Q. So you had training with firearms there, did you?
12 A. Yes, I did, sir, yes.
13 Q. Can I just concentrate on your experience with firearms
14 before you joined the Met. Before you joined the Met,
15 did you have cause to use a firearm?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Right. So you just had training with one?
18 A. Yes, I did, sir, yes.
19 Q. If I can just deal with some general policing matters.
20 By the time of this incident, in August 2011, you had
21 roughly how many years' experience?
22 A. I think approximately 14, 14 or there or thereabouts.
23 Q. So it would be fair to say that you were not green in
24 the job; do you understand what I mean by the expression
25 "you were not green in the job"?
1 A. I have heard the expression, sir. I would like to think
2 I wasn't green, sir.
3 Q. You knew the importance of giving an honest and accurate
5 A. Absolutely, sir, yes.
6 Q. You know that on various documents that you fill in --
7 I am not going to go through all of them, the jury have
8 seen some of these documents --
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We are picking part of the
10 microphone. There is another microphone there recording
11 you which is not doing very well. Let's see how that
12 goes. Carry on asking questions then we can see if the
13 microphone is picking you up.
14 MR THOMAS: I'll speak a little bit louder but try not to
15 raise the heat.
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: No, no, you just speak loudly when
17 otherwise you are speaking quietly and vice-versa.
18 MR THOMAS: Okay. If we can just go back then to your
19 policing experience. You know the importance of
20 documents you fill in?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We've seen, on some of the documents, that there is
23 what's known as a declaration of truth; you know what
24 I'm talking about?
25 A. Yes, I do, sir, yes.
1 Q. You also know about the importance of first accounts?
2 A. Yes, I do, sir, yes.
3 Q. So none of this was new to you in August 2011?
4 A. No, it wouldn't have been, sir.
5 Q. Let me move on. You also would agree that, as a police
6 officer, and in particular as a firearms officer, you
7 were given specialist training in relation to the use
8 and deployment of firearms; correct?
9 A. Yes, we were -- obviously we would have been trained for
10 that, yes.
11 Q. If I can just touch upon that, you knew the importance
12 that, should you discharge your firearm and if somebody
13 was injured or killed, you would have to account for
15 A. Absolutely. We are accountable for our action.
16 Q. Would you agree with the following propositions:
17 firstly, in relation to the use of your firearm, each
18 and every shot that you discharge has to be justified?
19 A. Absolutely. Every round we discharge we have to be
20 accountable for it. We're different to the military
21 rules of engagement, I suppose. Every round that we
22 discharge we have to account for that and justify it.
23 So, yes.
24 Q. Would you also agree with this: each and every round
25 that you discharge and you have to justify has to be
1 justified to a high standard, particularly if you harm
3 A. Absolutely -- sorry, I'll let you finish -- obviously it
4 has to be justified and it has to be lawful. So, yes,
5 it has to be justified, yes, sir.
6 Q. You know the test is: "Was it absolutely necessary to
7 use or deploy the force?"
8 A. Yes, yes, sir, yes.
9 Q. Okay. Can I just be clear on this before I go on: your
10 evidence is, if I have understood the gist of it, that
11 when you did deploy your firearm, when you did use your
12 firearm, you realised what you were doing, this wasn't
13 a question of you shooting blindly; would that be fair?
14 A. Absolutely. Yes, I didn't shoot blindly. I've shot
15 because there's a threat in front of me.
16 Q. I'm breaking it up and forgive me if I'm stating the
18 A. Sorry, sir.
19 Q. If I state the obvious, bear with me. You were not
20 shooting blindly, you were shooting at a specific
22 A. Yes, sir, that's correct, yes.
23 Q. Indeed, between the two shots that you fired, you
24 reassessed the situation, formed the view that there was
25 still a threat and engaged the threat a second time?
1 A. That's correct. I've assessed, fired one round,
2 reassessed and then fired a second round and then
3 reassessed again, yes.
4 Q. I'm going to put that on the shelf and come back to
5 that, if I may.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. When you got back to the police station, okay,
8 Leman Street --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'm on the 4 August, forgive me, I should make that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you get back to the police station after the
14 shooting, we know that, according to the log, you count
15 your ammunition out at about 11.30, I think it was;
16 that's when you check your ammunition in?
17 A. I believe so, sir, yes.
18 Q. Okay. Before that time, had you had any information in
19 relation to the Bruni? The Bruni is the firearm that
20 was found in the sock.
21 A. Sir, can I just reflect, because I was informed
22 something was found. Can I just refer back to my
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: What do you want to look at?
25 A. Just back to my statement because I remember a member of
1 the IPCC stopped me on the stairs during the
2 post-incident procedure to tell me that a non-police
3 firearm was recovered but I can't exactly remember what
4 time that was.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: On 4 August?
6 A. On 4 August, yes.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You think there's something in --
8 A. I think I remember noting it somewhere.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You look for it, if you find it, let
10 us know, and then you tell us.
11 A. (Pause)
12 I've got here on my statement, which was completed
13 on 23 August 2012 -- so we're a year later -- I was
14 asked to clarify some things. I've got written down
15 here -- I have not got the exact time:
16 "I was stopped on the stairs by IPCC who informed me
17 a firearm, non-police issue, had been recovered from the
19 But I haven't got the time, sir.
20 MR THOMAS: Forgive me, that wasn't my question. Because
21 you knew, according to certainly the evidence you gave
22 today and the evidence that you gave at the two
23 Hutchinson-Foster trials --
24 A. I follow, sir, yes.
25 Q. -- you already knew there was a firearm that had been
1 recovered because you told us that --
2 A. Sorry, I thought you were asking about back at the
3 police station when I knew.
4 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: He was, that's right.
5 A. If you ask me at the scene if I knew a firearm has been
6 recovered, yes, I was. I was aware.
7 MR THOMAS: My question is: when did you learn whether or
8 not that firearm, which had been found at the scene, had
9 been either used or not used; do you follow?
10 A. Has been discharged?
11 Q. Yes?
12 A. I never knew. I never knew if it was fired -- I was
13 never informed if it was fired or not fired. If that's
14 what you're asking me, sir.
15 Q. Yes. But you say this: you say that you knew clearly in
16 your mind at the time -- I'm talking about at the
17 scene -- when you engage with Mr Duggan, you knew in
18 your mind, you were absolutely clear, that Mark Duggan
19 hadn't fired a shot.
20 A. Yes, absolutely sure that Mark Duggan never fired at us.
21 Q. Can you help me with this: I just want to do some
22 timings with you. If we look at your statement that you
23 did on the night, I think that's to be found -- just
24 bear with me one second. (Pause)
25 Sorry, can we turn to CD page 6. This is your
1 pocket book. You have the original there?
2 A. I do indeed, sir, yes, thank you.
3 Q. We can see that you started your pocket book at 2240
4 because you've got that written down.
5 A. I do indeed, sir, yes.
6 Q. Just for a timeline, just to assist the jury, if you
7 turn to page 8 and if we enlarge that and bring it down,
8 we can see a time stamp, correct?
9 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
10 Q. What time did you timestamp your notebook?
11 A. 22.52.
12 Q. So the one thing that we were clear on, in your pocket
13 book you had completed your account, your first
14 account --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- before 11 o'clock?
17 A. Yes. As I say, I started at 2240, completed at 2250
18 and, as you can see there, I date stamped it 22.52.
19 Q. Two minutes to get to the franking machine?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Because the franking machine is quite near -- you
22 mean -- where were you, in a room in Leman Street?
23 A. Yes, it was -- again, I was lucky, I suppose, because
24 there wasn't people waiting for their -- what do you
25 call it?
1 Q. I just call it a franking machine, a time stamp machine?
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: What do you call it?
3 A. I think we call it an ATR, an automatic time reader,
4 I think. I don't know the mnemonic moniker, I'm sorry,
6 MR THOMAS: Can I say this: nothing turns on the name,
7 timestamp, franking machine, whatever?
8 A. I don't disagree with you, absolutely.
9 Q. In any event, the one thing we can see is your account
10 was completed before 11 o'clock?
11 A. Yes, sir, yes.
12 Q. Who did you make or write up your account with? Who was
13 with you when you wrote your account up?
14 A. I did the account in the Federation office at Leman
16 Q. My question was: who was with you when you wrote your
17 account up?
18 A. I think I was alone. I didn't have any other officers
19 present but my solicitor may well have been with me, if
20 I can recall.
21 Q. Federation rep?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So just your solicitor, right.
24 We know, because we've heard evidence from some of
25 the other officers who have come after you, that the
1 vast bulk of the rest of the team, the firearms team,
2 they made their notes after 11.00, 11.30, thereabouts,
3 were you aware of that?
4 A. No, I wasn't, sir. I'll take your word for that.
5 Q. Can I come back to your first account and I just wanted
6 to run through this with you. Again, just for the jury
7 in terms of getting the timeline?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. So if you bear with me. The very first account you gave
10 as to why you shot Mark Duggan was at 18.15. We can see
11 that at CD1042.
12 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
13 Q. It's up on the screen.
14 A. Thank you.
15 Q. We can see that it's not in your hand, not in your
16 handwriting --
17 A. No, it's not, sir.
18 Q. -- but you signed it?
19 A. I do indeed, sir, yes.
20 Q. We can see that's timed 18.50?
21 A. Yes, sir, yes.
22 Q. In fact, that first account was then recorded in a log,
23 and we can see that at CD621. If you go down to
24 1940 hours:
25 "I got out of the Charlie car, subject got out of
1 nearside rear taxi door holding a gun shaped item, in
2 a sock, in his hand. He began to raise it up in my
3 direction. I fired several shots."
4 A. Sorry, can I be -- what log is this? I do apologise.
5 Q. This is a log which records your account, the account
6 that we have just looked at, right, and it's just
7 repeating word for word your account?
8 A. Okay, sir, yes.
9 Q. But it's a log and you can see it's timed at 1940 hours?
10 A. Okay, thank you.
11 Q. It's the post-incident management log.
12 A. I apologise, thank you.
13 Q. I want to ask you about one other document. Can we go
14 to CD32786; this is Z50, that's Detective Superintendent
15 Mallon's note, yes?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. I want to take you to this because it's referring to
18 a call from Z51. It's very faint so you have to bear
19 with me. It talks about you going into Ferry Lane near
20 Tottenham and then it says this, referring to Mark
21 Duggan. I cannot make out the first word, but it says:
22 "... in a cab coming towards us. He pulls gun as he
23 got out of cab."
24 Do you see that, can you just make that out? Then:
25 "Shot in chest."
1 A. To be honest, it's not the best handwriting I've ever
2 seen but I can make it out roughly. I'll take your word
3 for it, sir.
4 Q. So there's a suggestion, because -- I'm going to suggest
5 the account as to what Mark did was essentially coming
6 from you; that must be right, isn't it?
7 A. Again, my recollection at the time was, after I'd
8 carried out first aid and handed over to the ambulance
9 service, I sat back in our control vehicle, which is the
10 4x4 Discovery. Then at 18.50 Inspector Elliott
11 approached me and I gave him that verbal account. So,
12 again, I don't know if that account --
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Can I just help the jury, hopefully?
14 The first account you have given to the Inspector you
15 give from the control car --
16 A. Yes.
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- and you said what you said in
18 that document.
19 A. I do indeed, sir, yes.
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Did you put any other account
21 between then and when it came into your notebook later
22 on that evening?
23 A. No, no, that's the only verbal account I gave of the
25 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think that what's being asked is
1 where did this particular wording come from?
2 A. The only person I spoke to at the scene to give a verbal
3 account to, if that's what you're asking me, Mr Thomas,
4 was Inspector Elliott and that's what's recorded here.
5 I didn't speak to anyone else about the account.
6 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you.
7 MR THOMAS: Then we come to your notebook that you make on
8 the night. You have the original there.
9 A. I do indeed, sir, yes thank you.
10 Q. That's 4 August.
11 A. Yes, that night, yes.
12 Q. Then the next account you give -- just running through
13 the chronology, if I may -- is the more detailed account
14 that you give on 7 August?
15 A. Yes, yes, sir. Yes, that's correct, yes.
16 Q. That 7 August account runs to, in the typed version,
17 11 pages?
18 A. It does indeed, yes. In my handwritten format it's 24,
20 Q. Okay. Then, just continuing with the chronology, you
21 are asked to assist the IPCC. They ask you for some
22 additional information to clarify your statement of
23 7 August.
24 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
25 Q. You give a further statement dated 18 January 2012.
1 A. Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.
2 Q. Then the IPCC come back to you, do they not?
3 A. They do indeed, yes.
4 Q. They ask you for some more clarification of your
6 A. Yes, they do, yes.
7 Q. Again looking at the typed version, you give a further
8 eight-page typed statement, that's on 25 May 2012?
9 A. Sir, I've got here 22 May.
10 Q. Forgive me, 22 May 2012.
11 A. Yes, not a problem. Again, yes, I hand wrote that and
12 that came, in my writing, 14 pages.
13 Q. Right. Then, on 6 June 2012, you produce a one-page
14 statement, one line, where you exhibit your map?
15 A. I haven't got it here in front of me but I do recall
16 doing an exhibit statement.
17 Q. I wonder if we can call that up, it's CS91. Do you see
18 that? If that could just be enlarged.
19 A. Yes, that's fine, thank you, sir, yes.
20 Q. "Further to my previous statements, I wish to produce
21 a map which I exhibit as V53/[I]."
22 A. I think that's "1", sir.
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That's "1", I think.
24 MR THOMAS: Just so we are clear, that's the map
25 Mr Underwood put up on the screen this morning?
1 A. It was, with the sort of overview of where the stop
2 happened and my A box.
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Your box A?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR THOMAS: Right. Then you are asked to clarify some
6 further matters in August 2012 and you produce another
7 witness statement for the IPCC, and that statement is
8 dated 23 August 200012.
9 A. Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.
10 Q. The next statement that I have for you is -- there's
11 a statement dated 28 November but I'll come back to that
12 in a moment.
13 A. Okay, sir.
14 Q. Let's stop there. I've run through all these witness
15 statements and you can see this matter has been very
16 much with you since the shooting and you've been asked,
17 on several occasions, to clarify matters, to think about
18 things, to produce an account, correct?
19 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
20 Q. V53, if you can just help me with this. This morning
21 when you were giving your evidence, one of the things
22 you said was:
23 "It's been 804 days ..."
24 I think that was the number you gave.
25 A. It was, sir, yes.
1 Q. "... since this incident."
2 Can I just ask you this, and it's a serious
3 question: 804 days, is that something that you went away
4 and you counted up the days since the incident or --
5 or -- is it because, as each day goes by, you tick
6 another day off so you're thinking "Gosh, it's Day 800,
7 now it's Day 801, now it's Day 802"? How did you come
8 up with that figure of 804 days?
9 A. Because, sir, I've been off operational duties for that
10 length of time and, as you can imagine, when you're
11 involved in a police shooting it doesn't only affect the
12 deceased but it affects me and my family. I don't want
13 to go into detail about my family.
14 Q. No, I am not asking you to.
15 A. But having been involved in a fatal shooting has had
16 a detrimental effect on my home life.
17 Q. Sorry, you didn't answer my question.
18 A. I think I did, sir.
19 Q. Forgive me. The question was: in relation to the 804
20 days, what I'm interested in knowing is, when you came
21 here today to give evidence, that figure of 804, is that
22 something that you had to look at a calendar and
23 calculate how many days, that you specifically counted
24 the days up or is it, as each day has gone by, you've
25 thought this is Day 53, this is Day 54, so as the time
1 is going by you're counting the days off; which is it?
2 A. It's probably none of them, sir, to be honest with you.
3 Q. How did you come up with the figure of 804?
4 A. It's something that I remember because, as I said to
5 you, it's 804 days since it's happened and as I said --
6 I don't get what you're trying to ask me, sir.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: If somebody says is it either one
8 thing or another and it's neither of those two things,
9 then please say that --
10 A. It's none of them, yes, I don't get that, sir.
11 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- and if it isn't -- anyway. But
12 you calculated your 804. Two years have gone by, we can
13 add that.
14 A. I do, in the nicest possible way, sir, it's a date that
15 is always -- that will always be with me, for obvious
16 reasons, and it's a number that I remember because I'm
17 off operational duties that long.
18 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: All right. Let's press on.
19 MR THOMAS: In any event, what you're saying is, if I've
20 understood you correctly, it was an incident that's
21 affected you, it's impacted upon you and, as you have
22 just indicated, it's impacted upon your home life as
24 A. Indeed, sir, yes.
25 Q. Do you remember that item I put on the shelf, I'm just
1 going to take it back off the shelf. It was in relation
2 to the first account you gave.
3 A. Okay, sir.
4 Q. Can we just have a look at that, please?
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Talking about the statement of the
6 4th, rather than the --
7 MR THOMAS: It's up on the screen.
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Oh, that one, to the Inspector when
9 you are sitting in the control car.
10 MR THOMAS: The very first account. Now, when you were
11 asked questions about in this morning, you said this:
12 you said, in relation to the very last sentence there,
13 "I fired several shots", you said:
14 "I am 99.999 per cent certain that I fired two
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. In response to a question from the learned Coroner, he
19 asked you this, he said:
20 "Apart from that sentence, are you sure about
21 everything else?"
22 You said "Yes".
23 A. That's correct, yes.
24 Q. It that's still the case, is it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Help me with this, V53. Here you are, you've told us
2 that you've been trained, you've got to justify each and
3 every shot. You know that on this day there were, you
4 perceived, two times when Mark Duggan, you say,
5 threatened you --
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. -- and your colleagues?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. You say that you were sure you fired two shots. You
10 didn't fire more than two shots at him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You say you were sure that Mark Duggan didn't fire
13 a shot at you?
14 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
15 Q. Why did you put "several shots"?
16 A. Because, as I said at the time, you may suffer from
17 perceptional distortion because, as I said, it's
18 a freeze frame moment. This incident happened within
19 a couple of seconds. So, again, by putting "several
20 shots" down, I'm not trying to mislead anybody, I'm
21 putting my hands up at the earliest opportunity to go,
22 "Yes, I'm the officer who fired the shots, you don't
23 need to look at other officers" because again, sir, in
24 the nicest possible way, if I had to put down a number
25 that was incorrect, I'm sure you would be -- and
1 barristers would be giving me a hard time now.
2 So, again, I didn't want to be misleading, I didn't
3 want to put down any false information and again by
4 putting down "I fired several shots" I'm putting my
5 hands up to go, "Yes, I'm the officer who fired the
7 Q. Forgive me, V53, why not simply put down: I think
8 I fired two shots.
9 A. Again, sir, this is my recollection. These are my notes
10 and the reason why I said "I fired several shots" is the
11 reason I gave you a second ago.
12 Q. Sorry, I asked you a question and the question is: why
13 not --
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think he's answered it actually
15 but if you want to repeat the question then I think
16 you've got the answer.
17 MR THOMAS: Nobody could take objection or criticise you if
18 you say "I think I fired two shots", could they?
19 A. Again, sir, from experience of dealing with barristers,
20 and I don't mean this derogatory, if I say "I think"
21 I guarantee at a court case or whatever you would give
22 me a really, really hard time and then you would start
23 going "Well, Officer, if you think that, do you doubt
24 something else?" Because that's the experience I have.
25 So by saying "I fired several shots", again, I'm
1 giving you -- at the earliest opportunity I'm putting my
2 hands up and say "Yes, I fired the shots".
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: If you said "I fired two shots", you
4 would not have all these questions this time, would you?
5 A. It is --
6 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You could have said two, couldn't
8 A. I could by again, sir, I wanted to be 100 per cent
9 accurate with my evidence. Again, I have just been
10 through a traumatic incident and bits and pieces.
11 Again, there's pieces of the jigsaw in my head that was
12 going all around the place, bearing in mind this is only
13 nine minutes after Mr Duggan is pronounced dead. I just
14 wanted to have -- just think about it logically, if that
15 makes sense. I hope that's coming across how I mean it
16 to come across.
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: "I fired two shots"?
18 MR THOMAS: Why not simply say "I fired shots"?
19 A. I have said "I fired several shots", which means more
20 than one.
21 Q. That's misleading, isn't it, because you didn't fire
22 several shots?
23 A. I did, I fired more than one, sir. That's my
24 recollection and that's my interpretation of "I fired
25 several", which is more than one.
1 Q. Indeed, officer, when you get to your statement later on
2 in your pocket book --
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. -- you say you fired a number of shots.
5 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
6 Q. Can I ask you this and come straight to the point: we
7 know that the colleagues you were with don't start to
8 write up their notebooks until after you have completed
9 your notebook, just in terms of timing? That's the
10 evidence that we've heard.
11 A. I take your word for it but I wasn't aware of it.
12 Q. My question is: were you aware that none of your
13 colleagues say the number of shots that you fired? They
14 all say "fired several shots" or "fired a number of
16 A. I'm not aware of that, sir. I've never seen their
18 Q. Fine.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Just so we get the suggestion, it's
20 sort of coming as though it's part of the training that
21 if you are in this situation what you should do is never
22 say the number, you always say "several" or "a number",
23 or perhaps one.
24 A. To be honest with you, my recollection, when I was being
25 trained in the sort of post-incident procedure, is
1 unfortunately there has been occasions where officers
2 have fired a number of shots and because -- again, I am
3 no expert in this but obviously there's perceptional
4 distortion. Some officers have come back and some have
5 actually thought "Have I actually fired?" because of the
6 traumatic incident that they've been involved with and
7 they have not been able to recollect the number of
8 rounds they have fired.
9 So it's kind of training as well, in the nicest
10 possible way. We want to assist the investigation but
11 we don't want to give wrong evidence so by saying
12 "several shots", it is partly training, I suppose --
13 that --
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Are you expressly trained for this
15 or is it something of a practice -- you are not on the
16 line on this particular bit of the wording at all, so
17 don't take it personally, but we are getting this
18 impression, that no one wants to actually say the number
19 of shots and I just want to know why really, whether
20 it's training or --
21 A. Again, sir, I think it's from experience within our
22 department, because there's been a number of shootings
23 where, in the nicest possible way, officers have got --
24 got a really, really hard time in the box for saying --
25 say "I fired X amount of rounds" when in fact when they
1 do count back and they do bits and pieces it's actually
2 more or less. So I suppose it is kind of training.
3 I remember being told just to put in "several shots"
4 until you're 100 per cent sure in your head how many
5 rounds you've actually fired to disclose it. I hope
6 that makes sense.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you. Let Mr Thomas ask you
8 about something else then.
9 MR THOMAS: I wonder if we can put up any photograph,
10 a photograph of the mini van. That one will do.
11 This is a photograph of the mini van -- the taxi
12 van, yes? You say that's gold, do you?
13 A. Is that the original mini van?
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: This is the original one.
15 A. I do apologise.
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It's been taken off to a garage
17 after the event and there it is. Don't have any worries
18 about the number of the van because it's been scrapped.
19 A. What is your question, sorry?
20 Q. You say that's gold, do you?
21 A. Looking at that now, I would have to concede with you it
22 looks more silver than gold.
23 Q. I wonder if we've got a picture of the mini van during
24 the day in sunlight.
25 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: There we are.
1 MR THOMAS: You say that's gold, do you.
2 A. I have to be honest, sir, that looks more gold than
3 silver because if you look at the sun -- I presume
4 that's the sun on the front of it, that looks more of
5 a goldy colour to me, being honest with you ... from
6 where I'm sitting.
7 Q. Again, I just asked you about the number of shots and
8 you have given me -- and whether you could explain why
9 your colleagues said "number of shots" and you have
10 given your answer in relation to that. Let me ask you
11 this: was there any discussion or conferring in relation
12 to the colour of the mini van?
13 A. From what I recollect, when we done our notes, I think
14 initially the gold was mentioned on the surveillance
15 commentary, at the time, from what I can recollect, and
16 then I think when we done our notes on the 7 August, I'm
17 sure -- again I'm just going from memory now -- I think
18 it was V59 may have done a -- sheets -- not A4 sheets,
19 flip charts, and he -- I think we may have discussed
20 what was the colour of it, or something like that, just
21 to confirm that it was the colour. From what I can
23 Q. Why would you need to confer to confirm the colour of
24 the mini van. How is that a relevant matter that is
25 appropriate to confer on?
1 A. I think it is because obviously you want to get it
2 right, sir, isn't it? So if you are not sure of
3 something, again, from memory, the surveillance
4 commentary was gold and, again, the colour of the van
5 was pretty irrelevant to me in the grand scale of
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Why put it in the statement?
8 A. I suppose because I thought it was gold, gold in colour
9 because the surveillance commentary mentioned it was
10 a gold-coloured minicab, and I put that in the statement
11 quite early doors.
12 MR THOMAS: Can we be clear on this? Are you saying you put
13 it in your statement because this was the commentary you
14 received or are you saying you put it in your statement
15 because this was your perception or are you saying
16 something else? Can we be clear?
17 A. I would probably say it was the commentary, from what
18 I can recollect, that the surveillance team mentioned
19 a gold -- when they described the minicab I can
20 recollect the mention was a gold coloured minicab
21 registration number as it was. So I think that's where
22 the gold came from, from what I can recollect.
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That stuck in your mind?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR THOMAS: Let's come to the event itself. Can I ask you
1 please to look at your witness statement dated
2 22 May 2012?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. That's CS83, please, do you have that; do you have that
5 in front of you?
6 A. I do, if you just bear with me, sir. (Pause)
7 Yes, I do, thank you.
8 Q. Now, I just want to ask you about the matters leading up
9 to when you saw Mark Duggan exiting the vehicle.
10 You say this: you say, as your vehicle was
11 approaching the minicab you actually saw Mark Duggan in
12 the minicab.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You could see him in the rear of the minicab?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You say that you could see movement in relation to Mark
17 Duggan, as if he'd realised something was going on?
18 A. Again, I can't go in -- obviously, I can't speak for
19 Mr Duggan but, yes, I would believe that he knew
20 something was going on.
21 Q. That was your perception?
22 A. It was, sir, yes.
23 Q. You also say this: you say that you formed the
24 expression that he was going to run, he was going to
25 make a run for it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You say that you were aware, or you had some discussion
3 at one of the briefings, that he might attempt to
5 A. I do not think it was particularly around Mark Duggan
6 himself, but it was around TMD members in general, that
7 members of that gang are very police-aware, and so on.
8 So I don't think it was actually around Mark Duggan
9 himself but it was around the gang itself. I hope
10 that --
11 Q. In any event, you certainly had that in your mind?
12 A. It was definitely in my mind, sir, yes.
13 Q. You had that in your mind and that, you had been told,
14 before, and here you are, on the operation and this is
15 what you thought was going to happen. This was your
17 A. I didn't think -- I had -- I believe it was a high
18 probability that an escape attempt would occur.
19 Q. I thought we just agreed this was just your perception?
20 A. It was, yes, yes.
21 Q. Right. Tell me this: what training are you provided
22 with in dealing with those who attempt to run?
23 A. Okay. When we have our main tactical briefing, which is
24 separate from the overview briefing, one of our
25 contingencies, one of our deployment contingencies is to
1 deal with escapers. So one of those is you deal with
2 escapers, violent persons, attempted vehicle make offs,
3 vehicle pursuits and persons in the premises.
4 So if we're dealing with escapers, their contingency
5 is for CO19 officers only to chase and detain and that's
6 the contingency.
7 Q. So the contingency for an escaper is to chase and
8 detain; you don't shoot them, do you?
9 A. Not unless there was a threat, sir, no. If they start
10 going on their toes I'll try and keep up with them and
11 try and chase them.
12 Q. Now, let's come back to the stop itself.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Can I just break this down, if I may. If I have
15 understood your evidence, the evidence you gave to
16 Mr Underwood today, the first time you become aware of
17 a gun is when -- your words -- Mark Duggan does
18 a 180 pivot --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- and faces you?
21 A. Yes, that's correct, yes.
22 Q. Up until that point in time, you hadn't seen any gun?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. You also say this -- and I just want to take a step
25 back, if I may -- when the vehicle comes to a stop,
1 that's the minicab --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- you see -- you and your colleagues also stop and you
4 begin to make your way up your vehicles.
5 A. Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.
6 Q. You see the minicab door begin to open, unopen.
7 A. Yes. As we're pulling up, Mark Duggan is going across
8 the back seat and the sliding door begins to open, yes.
9 Q. You see Mark Duggan get out?
10 A. Yes, yes, sir, I do, yes. I would describe more of
11 a jump out movement but, yes, get out.
12 Q. When you say he gets out, just so we're clear, you say
13 that -- where are you at that point in time? So bear
14 with me, so when Mark Duggan's feet hit the pavement,
15 where do you say you are?
16 A. I can't be -- obviously you're probably narrowing it
17 down to a specific millisecond, I suppose, or second,
18 probably my best recollection would be I would have been
19 in the process of opening my car, one of my feet on the
20 floor and I'm actually starting to exit my vehicle.
22 Q. Then you are out of your vehicle.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just so we're clear: when you are out of your vehicle,
25 where do you say Mark Duggan is going?
1 A. Initially he was facing W42, so he was facing towards
2 the general direction of where the Alpha car is.
3 Q. Just so we are all clear on this, this is looking
4 towards the brow of the hill towards where the Tube
5 station is?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So by the time you had got out of your vehicle, do you
8 say Mark Duggan had gone in that general direction?
9 A. What I recall is he -- as I say he's jumped out, he's
10 facing W42, W42 shouts "Stand still" and he's facing him
11 but I don't think he moves from what I can recall, as in
12 any further steps, he sort of stood still, sees W42 and
14 Q. So just pause there. So your evidence is he gets out --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- but merely turns and is looking in the direction of
17 where W42 is?
18 A. That's what I remember, sir, yes.
19 Q. So your evidence isn't that he gets out and initially
20 goes towards W42?
21 A. Again, sir, I can't say with 100 per cent certainty that
22 he took any steps but my recollection was that he faced
23 him and stopped. But, again, I cannot be 100 per cent
24 certain. He may have done a couple of steps, I don't
25 know, but my recollection, when I've seen him, when he
1 jumped out, he stopped and he was facing W42.
2 Q. Yes. You see, on your version of events, when -- what
3 Mark Duggan has done is he's literally just -- however
4 you want to put it -- jumped out of the vehicle and he's
5 on the pavement right by the taxi doors; is that right?
6 A. Yes. There or thereabouts, sir, yes.
7 Q. Just so we're clear, what you say is you say that you
8 hear W42 say "Stand still"?
9 A. Yes. He initially shouted armed police when he was
10 within the cab --
11 Q. Don't worry about the conversation for the moment. I'm
12 concentrating on the positioning. We'll come back to
13 the conversation in a moment.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. He gets out, W42 says whatever W42 says?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mark Duggan, on your version of events, doesn't approach
18 W42. All he does is he pivots round, correct?
19 A. That's my recollection, sir, yes.
20 Q. When he pivots round, it's not your evidence, is it,
21 that he makes any movement towards you, apart from
22 pivoting around?
23 A. As I say, sir, at that time I don't remember because
24 obviously it happened so quickly but all I remember,
25 with certainty, is he's done a pivot, I don't know if he
1 turned left or to his right but he's ended up
2 180 degrees facing me. So I don't know, and I cannot be
3 100 per cent certain if he done any steps. I don't
5 Q. The only reason why I ask you that is because, on your
6 account, it's the pivot and as he's pivoting that the
7 gun comes into focus. You see the gun on your version
8 of events, being pointed towards you, which is why you
10 A. Yes. I think if I take it back a little bit, sir, if
11 I may.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Can you divide that up a bit?
13 A. He's turned to face me and then he's stopped so wherever
14 he stopped he hasn't moved, if that -- for that part,
15 and the gun -- I didn't shoot straight away because I've
16 seen the gun side-on to his body, I've assessed and it
17 wasn't until he actually made an overt movement to move
18 the gun away from his body that's when I fired.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: But the hand where -- when you
20 first -- on the pivot you first see his hand in the way
21 that you demonstrated to the jury.
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Was that hand and arm in the same
24 shape as far as you could see when he was facing W42?
25 A. If I may stand up.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Yes of course.
2 A. If W42 is there (indicates), and I'm there, again,
3 I can't -- all I can see is his back I couldn't see his
4 hands and bits and pieces and then, as I say, I don't
5 know if he turned left or to hit right but he's turned
6 to face me and that is when I've seen immediately that
7 he's holding the hand gun in his right hand, without
8 making any further movements.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Without making further movements?
10 A. From my recall.
11 MR THOMAS: At that position, your evidence is, apart from
12 turning, he doesn't take, so far as you could see, any
13 steps towards you?
14 A. I don't remember him taking any steps, sir.
15 Q. You don't remember him taking any steps towards you.
16 Then you say the next thing you recall is the movement
17 of the hand and I'll come back to that in a moment.
18 A. No problem, yes.
19 Q. You see, I need to put this to you: it might be
20 suggested that Mark Duggan had moved a few feet in the
21 direction towards the rear of the minicab, in other
22 words the suggestion is he was running towards where you
23 were or towards where the railings were; do you follow?
24 A. So it's clear in my head, sir, what you're saying is
25 he's jumped out of the minicab.
1 Q. And has made a beeline in your direction?
2 A. So he hasn't actually faced W42 basically jumped forward
3 and begun straight for the railings, is that what you're
4 asking me, sir? That didn't happen, sir.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That didn't happen? You're
6 absolutely sure?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Absolutely.
9 MR THOMAS: Can I come to the actual movement that you say
10 Mark Duggan did.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You say that as soon as you saw the gun --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- you said you had your MP5 in the lower position, not
15 in --
16 A. Sorry to interrupt -- carry on, sorry.
17 Q. You said you had your MP5 in the lower position so you
18 could see above -- you had the peripheral vision above,
19 before you brought it up to aim, correct?
20 A. Yes. We call it the off-aim ready position so it's --
21 I think you are demonstrating slightly lower down. What
22 I mean by off-aim ready, that's aim (indicates) and
23 that's off-aim ready is less than a couple of
24 centimetres down (indicates).
25 Q. In any event, you are not aiming at Mark Duggan, you say
1 that you could see your peripherally -- I think you said
2 you had a "lovely view"?
3 A. I have, yes.
4 Q. Those were the words you used this morning?
5 A. I did indeed, sir, yes.
6 Q. Then you say you saw the gun as you pivots 180?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. At that point, I think you said that your vision went
9 directly towards the gun?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. V53, if I've understood your evidence correctly, at that
12 point in time, until you discharge your second shot,
13 your eyes did not leave the threat, the gun; is that
15 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
16 Q. You say that -- I wonder if we can just -- do we have
17 the Bruni in court, sir?
18 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We do have both the gun that was
19 found on the grass and the sock.
20 MR THOMAS: I wonder if both of those could be produced.
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Right. Are they ready to be
22 produced? (Handed)
23 Anyone handling this please have gloves on. V53, if
24 you are going to be asked to handle it, would you put
25 a glove or two on, please?
1 (The witness put on latex gloves)
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Do you see that implement there?
3 Have you ever seen it so close before?
4 A. No, and I don't want -- no I haven't, sir, no.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It has not been shown to you or --
6 between 4 August and today?
7 A. (Shakes head) No.
8 MR THOMAS: I wonder if you could -- you have gloves on,
9 could you just pick it up, please?
10 Could you stand up, please, for us.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We've been told it's not got the magazine in it so it's
13 been made safe.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. What I would like you to do now we've actually got the
16 actual item that was found in the vicinity. Could you
17 just show us, demonstrate again, how you say Mark Duggan
18 was holding this when you first saw him?
19 A. Like this (indicates).
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Can you just spin round and show me?
21 A. (indicates).
22 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Held like that?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR THOMAS: What I would like you to do, V53, is I just want
25 you to show us the threat -- "the tipping point",
1 I think was the expression you used --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- the tipping point, why you decided to discharge your
4 first round from your weapon?
5 A. Absolutely. As I say, initially it was side-on to his
6 stomach, so it's parallel to the floor. So as I said
7 earlier on I was hoping he would drop it but then as he
8 began -- he basically made an overt movement so moved
9 the gun away a couple of inches, so this is the tipping
10 point to me (indicates) because you all you need to do
11 now is bang or bang (indicates). So the tipping point
12 is here, sir, if that's what you're asking me.
13 Q. Can I ask you this --
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you. Just to follow up on the
15 question as to whether you had seen that gun or any gun
16 between 4 August 2011 and today, now you have that
17 exhibited there, I suppose the next question that one
18 perhaps ought to ask is: is there anything about the
19 appearance of that item which helps you? Is it
21 A. Unfortunately, sir, that's the gun, that's exactly the
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Exactly in accord with your memory
24 of what you saw on the 4th.
25 A. Absolutely. I've never seen it. Apart from in
1 Mr Duggan's hand, I've never seen it, except in
2 a picture at the Kevin Hutchinson-Foster trial so I've
3 never actually seen it as an exhibit before.
4 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You were not asked to handle it in
5 that trial?
6 A. No, no.
7 MR THOMAS: Help me with this --
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Put it down in front of you for
9 a moment and have a seat.
10 MR THOMAS: In your first account, this is the account you
11 gave to Inspector Elliott -- you say that he began to
12 raise the gun up.
13 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
14 Q. That's not what you described today though.
15 A. I think, sir, I've described raise in many pages in my
16 statement and the word I describe is "raises" to
17 describe a movement. So he's raised it as if he's going
18 to -- as if he's going to move it into an aim position,
19 raise it into an aim position.
20 Q. What you've described today, what you have just
21 demonstrated, was Mr Duggan pivoting 180 --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- and moving the gun out to the side; agreed?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You don't describe a raising movement with the gun, do
2 A. I think I do, sir, if you look further on in my
3 statement I have described it as raising --
4 Q. No, I'm talking about in your evidence today?
5 A. Just now I haven't. But again if you are picking on the
6 word "raise" --
7 Q. Listen to the question: in relation to what you have
8 demonstrated today --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- you say that was the threat?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All I'm putting to you is you haven't demonstrated, in
13 terms of the threat, which is what caused you to fire,
14 to shoot, you haven't demonstrated Mark Duggan raising
15 the gun, have you?
16 A. Sir, I disagree. If you're picking on the word "raise",
17 to me that's what he was doing. That's my -- these are
18 my notes, this is the English I use to describe it.
19 Okay, perhaps you would use a different word. To me,
20 raise is to describe a movement so it's side on to his
21 body (indicates) and he's gone to raise it as if he's
22 going to bring it up to an aim position. That's how
23 I use the word "raise".
24 Q. Your shots.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The first shot, you say, hit him in the chest?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The second shot, you say, hit him in the arm?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can I explore that with you?
6 A. Of course you can.
7 Q. I wonder if we can have the photograph of the mannequin,
8 please, with the trajectory rods, the one with the --
9 thank you.
10 Can you see the trajectory rods?
11 A. Yes, I can, sir, yes.
12 Q. You can see the first trajectory rod, the one that's
13 more or less under the armpit; do you see that?
14 A. Is that X or Y, sir?
15 Q. That's the Y, I believe?
16 A. Okay, sir.
17 Q. The one that's horizontal.
18 A. Okay, sir, yes, Y.
19 Q. Then you can see that the X is going at a downward
20 angle; do you see that?
21 A. I do, sir, yes.
22 Q. I want to explore this with you, if I may, and your
23 version of events. Let's start with your positioning,
24 okay. You've got your MP5 and I think your evidence is
25 you move it into the aim position and you don't come out
1 of that position? You're stationary.
2 A. When I fired the shot, sir, is that --
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Yes, I did move, sir, yes.
5 Q. So we can see that you have taken aim --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- and essentially your weapon --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- is in a horizontal position?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Right. Now, I think you describe your height as about
13 A. 6'2", there or thereabouts.
14 Q. There or thereabouts. I think we may hear evidence that
15 Mark Duggan was about six foot tall, something like
17 A. Okay, sir.
18 Q. Your evidence is that when Mark came out and pivoted
19 180, he was more or less upright; that's the evidence
20 you gave this morning?
21 A. There or thereabouts, yes, sir.
22 Q. More or less upright?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can I just go through the science with you?
25 A. Of course you can, please do.
1 Q. I wonder if I can use Mr Straw just to demonstrate
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Right. We'll see. Would it be
4 better if Mr Straw stands at the front so all the jury
5 can see him. Mr Straw, come round and stand in front of
6 Mr Underwood then we can all see you, and indeed so can
7 those upstairs as well.
8 (Mr Straw moved to the front of the court)
9 MR THOMAS: If Mr Straw could stand on square to me. You
10 say Mark Duggan was more or less square on you.
11 A. There or thereabouts.
12 Q. This isn't fine precision, it's just giving an idea.
13 A. Absolutely, no problem.
14 Q. I'm going to come back to the trajectory records in one
15 moment. Can we just take the first trajectory rod, the
16 X, the one that hits the arm?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If we can just show it again, please.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That's Y, actually.
20 MR THOMAS: Sorry, the Y.
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: There's nothing scientific in the
22 "X" and "Y", as you know. The scientist doesn't know
23 which one came first.
24 MR THOMAS: I'm just going to refer to the trajectory rod
25 that goes under the arm, the one that hits the bicep.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The right bicep.
2 A. Yes.
3 MR THOMAS: If we look at the bicep trajectory rod we can
4 see that's more or less horizontal?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Just so you understand the science, you're in that
7 position --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- the horizontal position (indicates), Mark Duggan is
10 in front of you. When you fire, your bullet is going in
11 a horizontal position, yes?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You don't change?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You don't change. I'm going to make the suggestion that
16 the science that we're going to hear is going to
17 indicate that that probably is more likely than not your
18 first shot; do you understand?
19 A. So it's clear in my head, Mr Thomas, what you're
20 suggesting is that the arm shot is not the first --
21 Q. Is --
22 A. Is, okay.
23 Q. -- is the first shot.
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You tell us it's the second shot.
25 A. It is, I believe so.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It's being suggested it's the first.
2 In any event, let's press on.
3 MR THOMAS: I'm going to continue. Just so you understand.
4 You're in that position.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You fire the first shot, your bullet is going
7 horizontally. Mark Duggan is in an upright type
8 position, you hit the bicep first, okay?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Fine. I want you just to look and understand.
11 Your second shot, can we just show the image again.
12 Can you see -- I wonder if Mr Straw could just turn to
13 the side. If Mr Straw just indicates there (indicates).
14 Your bullet goes in around about that -- where
15 Mr Straw is indicating --
16 A. Okay, sir, yes.
17 Q. -- then comes out lower down; do you see?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. If Mr Straw -- (indicates).
20 A. Okay, sir, yes.
21 Q. If you remain in the same position, right, to get that
22 sort of angle, you would either have to be shooting down
23 (indicates); do you follow? So the bullet goes in
24 a downward angle or Mr Duggan is leaning forward?
25 A. Okay.
1 Q. Do you follow?
2 A. I do follow, yes, sir.
3 Q. I'm going to suggest that was the second shot. Do you
5 A. I do, sir. Again, my recollection --
6 MR THOMAS: Mr Straw, if you would like to go back.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You give the answer.
8 A. Again, sir, this happened in the space of a second,
9 a second and a half. My recollection at the time is the
10 first round impact on his chest and the second one
11 impact on his arm. That's my recollection, sir. But
12 I appreciate the science --
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Just move away from which is one and
14 two, I know there's a difference there. But you would
15 accept, looking at those trajectory rods, that there is
16 a real difference of the trajectory of the bullet coming
17 out of your MP5.
18 A. I think the only thing, maybe perhaps, sir -- and again,
19 I am no expert in this field whatsoever -- but if I'm
20 looking at the threat, okay, so, again, I have to make
21 a decision, so I have to -- I'm -- the information in
22 front of me I'm taking in, my head is making the
23 decision and then I decide to fire one round.
24 So, again, when I've decided to fire the first
25 round, Mr Duggan is like this (indicates), I perceive
1 the round to hit him on his chest which has caused
2 a flinching movement so, again, when I've actually --
3 when I've seen this threat, again, it's probably taken
4 a split second to realise, "Right, that's a threat,
5 right, brain, I need to fire again", and I've fired
6 a second round so it may be -- again, I am not
7 a scientist and I don't propose to be -- that as the
8 round actually impacted on him, he may have been
9 crouching down, I don't know, but when I fired the
10 second round he was as I have demonstrated to you
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: All right. Have a seat. I will
13 just ask you one thing then we'll leave it there and
14 we'll have a break. You accept that the one thing out
15 of all that, the one item that was moving, was
16 Mr Duggan? You're stock still, you're firing your two
18 A. Yes. Again, if I can just be really clear, if I can be
19 really clear again, sir, so hopefully I'm explaining
20 this right for everyone. Again, he has moved his arm
21 way away, away from his body, I fired one round. That's
22 impacted on his chest (indicates) and now the gun is
23 facing towards me and then I fired a second one. So
24 when I fired the second round he's like this (indicates)
25 but I appreciate what you're trying to get across.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: No, I'm just saying that the thing
2 here, obviously the scientist will come and say whatever
3 he or she is going to say and no doubt the barristers
4 will ask them questions too, but, as far as your
5 recollection is concerned, at the time of the two shots
6 you are more or less --
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- static.
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Your feet are planted firmly, the
11 gun is at the same height and level. It may have been
12 slightly left and right, do you think?
13 A. Maybe -- again, sir. You know, it happened so quickly,
14 it maybe slightly front on but maybe he was slightly to
15 the left of me, ever so slightly.
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: But between the two shots, that's
17 the position --
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- and any movement is of Mr Duggan
20 and his body, that's what makes the alteration of the
21 trajectory of the bullets?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you. We'll have our break
24 there. So stay there just for a moment, we'll let the
25 jury have a five or ten minute break.
23 (3.21 pm)
24 (A short break)
25 (3.36 pm)
3 (In the presence of the jury)
4 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you very much, members of the
5 jury, we'll ask then for V53 to come back in.
6 (The witness returned into court)
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: As before, under your oath
8 affirmation, now we can put the cameras on and press on
9 with the questioning.
10 MR THOMAS: V53, I want to come back, if I may, to this
11 whole issue about Mark's positioning.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Now, the one thing that we know is that the
14 trajectory -- that's the angle at which your bullet went
15 through Mark's body, yes?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. I want to show you a photograph in relation to the chest
18 shot. So this is the shot which you say you believe was
19 the first shot; do you follow?
20 A. Okay, sir, yes.
21 Q. I've already been through with you the whole thing about
22 you being static and the only thing that could have been
23 moving was Mark, and we've understood your evidence in
24 relation to that.
25 For the chest shot to have gone in at the angle it
1 went in, with you being positioned where you were, Mark
2 Duggan would have had to have been in this sort of
3 position -- I wonder if the photo could be shown.
4 Could we pan out of it a second. So let's pan out.
5 So you can see, for the chest shot to have been
6 aimed and to have gone in at the angle which would have
7 been more or less horizontal, Mark Duggan would have had
8 to have been bent over in your direction in that sort of
9 position. If we show the next photo, at the side, in
10 that sort of angle, do you see?
11 A. I do, yes, sir.
12 Q. That's not your evidence?
13 A. No, it's not my evidence, sir, but, again, my
14 recollection is what I told you before the lunch
15 break -- the break.
16 Q. Yes. I just want to be clear so that everybody
17 understands. Your evidence is not that Mark Duggan --
18 when you shot him, your evidence is not that he was bent
19 over in that way?
20 A. No. As I said, sir, before lunch, when I fired the
21 second round, when I decided to fire the second round,
22 he was like this (indicates).
23 Q. I understand that. V53, I understand that. Forget
24 about the second round because I am not concentrating on
25 what you say is the arm shot. I'm concentrating on the
1 chest shot, that's all I'm focusing on.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. To be clear, you are saying that, "When I shot him in
4 the chest, he was not bent over in the way that we could
6 A. No, sir, that's not my recollection.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Not your recollection at all?
8 A. No.
9 MR THOMAS: You see, if I can just deal with this -- sorry,
10 can we just show the next photo. Sorry, the one where
11 you see -- both trajectory rods going through, the X and
12 the Y.
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The one on the side that we had
14 earlier on.
15 MR THOMAS: That's the one, yes. So just let's look at
16 this. In your version of events, V53 -- all I'm doing
17 is just focusing on the science where the trajectory
18 rods went in and your evidence that you are static, you
19 are in the same position.
20 For those injuries, those track wounds, to have been
21 on Mark Duggan, this must have happened, on your version
22 of events. So you have Mark Duggan with the first shot,
23 your first shot, which you say is the chest shot, bent
24 over and then, after you've shot him in the chest, he
25 rises up.
1 A. No, that's not my recollection, sir.
2 Q. I appreciate that. But do you see the point I'm making?
3 If you look at the trajectories, if what you're saying
4 is right, that you shot him in the chest first --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- and then you shot him in the arm second, for that to
7 happen, on the science, Mark Duggan would have had to
8 have been bent over first for the chest shot, to get the
9 right angle --
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. -- and then stood up and you shot him in the arm; is
12 that what you're saying happened?
13 A. Again, my recollection, sir, is how I described it
14 earlier on.
15 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Yes, all right.
16 A. So I appreciate the science but --
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Nothing that's going to be said
18 about that -- it's your recollection.
19 A. It's my recollection, sir.
20 MR THOMAS: May I suggest -- sorry, there's just one other
21 point on that. Not only do you have the angle, the
22 chest shot with the angle going downwards, but it's also
23 going from right to left, do you follow --
24 A. Yes, I do follow, sir, yes.
25 Q. -- which would suggest that when Mark Duggan was shot in
1 the chest, he was at an angle facing towards where the
2 minicab is. He would have been facing towards the
3 minicab; do you follow?
4 A. Sorry, sir, I appreciate your movements but whereabouts
5 are you saying Mark Duggan would have been standing,
6 with his back to the minicab?
7 Q. You are standing where you are standing -- imagine you
8 are you, Mark Duggan is in front of you, the minicab
9 would be to the left of Mark Duggan, to your right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What I'm saying is, for the bullet to have entered the
12 right-hand side and to have slightly come out on the
13 left-hand side he would have had to have been tilted
14 towards the minicab; do you follow?
15 A. I do follow, yes, sir.
16 Q. That's not what you say happened, is it?
17 A. No, sir, it's not.
18 Q. You see, I'm going to suggest the science doesn't
19 support your account at all.
20 A. Okay.
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That's going to be a matter for the
22 jury to consider. I think he's given -- the only other
23 thing that perhaps we have not looked at on this
24 position is how much movement there was between the time
25 he pivoted round and you saw the gun. Because then you
1 have him towards the front of the minicab, don't you, at
2 that time?
3 He goes out, W42, then he pivots round, stood at the
4 front of the minicab and then clearly, by the time he's
5 shot, he's come past the door towards you, hasn't he,
6 towards the rear of the minicab?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: What recollection do you have of
9 that movement?
10 A. Again, sir, obviously I'm here to help but, you know,
11 I don't want to make up stuff and bits and pieces.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We're trying to get every detail of
13 your recollection out.
14 A. My recollection was that he's jumped out of the minicab,
15 initially he's faced W42, he's done that pivot movement
16 and, again, in my head, you know, the world has stopped,
17 it's a freeze frame moment, because he's turned to face
18 me. So I don't remember whether or not he moved anymore
19 but he was face on to me, maybe slightly to the left of
20 me; that's all I can really remember.
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Because another thing that clearly
22 we are beginning to picture is that bullet that
23 goes through the chest ends up in the taxi, more likely
24 than not, so he's towards you, he's gone passed the door
25 coming towards the rear of the taxi --
1 A. Okay, yes.
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- towards your square A on your
3 plan; do you have any recollection of that movement at
5 A. Not really, sir, no. Again, I don't want to put pieces
6 of the jigsaw that isn't there.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I certainly don't want you to guess
8 or to invent anything. I am just trying to find whether
9 you have any recollection of that particular part of
10 this account.
11 A. No, sir, no.
12 MR THOMAS: Can I just follow the next theme up, and that's
13 the positioning of Mark Duggan's hand.
14 The science may suggest -- we have not heard it yet
15 but I'm going to put it to you if you need to deal with
16 it -- that the position of Mark Duggan's hand -- you
17 know the shot to the bicep --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- that Mark Duggan's hand wasn't in that position. The
20 way that the bullet has entered his arm, the science is
21 going to suggest probably that his arm was close to his
22 mid-region; do you follow?
23 A. Okay, so -- okay, yes, I think I follow, sir, yes.
24 Q. So there was no turning the gun out towards you; do you
1 A. I follow. If that's what --
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think your evidence is not so much
3 that the arm is coming out.
4 A. No, again if I can maybe describe, sir?
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You stand up and describe it for us.
6 A. Again, my description is that the bicep has more or less
7 stayed in contact with his right chest (indicates). So
8 his hand has moved out like this, that's shot one and
9 then his arm is still in contact with --
10 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: So very much in the same shape, it's
11 just the top of his chest that's circled around, turned
12 around. All right, thank you.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR THOMAS: Let's just focus on that, please, if I may.
15 In your evidence this morning, you say that Mark
16 Duggan, when you fired the second shot, fell backwards.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You have a clear image in your mind of him falling
20 A. At some stage he fell backwards, yes.
21 Q. You say "at some stage he fell backwards", you're
22 talking about after you shot him?
23 A. Yes. There's a -- probably a period of a couple of
24 seconds that, yes, he fell backwards.
25 Q. Your evidence isn't: "I shot him and he fell forwards"?
1 A. No, I haven't mentioned forwards, no, sir.
2 Q. You see, I'm going to suggest that not only are you
3 wrong in your account but you are deliberately giving
4 your account wrong in relation to him falling backwards.
5 He fell forwards and you know it.
6 A. Mr Thomas, I appreciate you have to put that across. My
7 recollection at the time was he fell backwards. I'm not
8 here to try and mislead anyone, I'm here to help. You
9 know, I only can remember what I remember. I am not
10 going to say something that didn't happen or what
11 I don't remember. My recollection was that he went
13 Q. Fine. Help me with this: tunnel vision; my eyes were
14 glued to the gun -- when he pivoted 180 degrees, my eyes
15 were glued on the gun; I was keeping my eye on the
16 threat; at both times I discharged my weapon it was
17 because I saw the threat, I saw the gun. Yes?
18 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
19 Q. I wonder if we can just -- I know you know the weight of
20 it but I wonder if -- I know the Bruni has been put into
21 a plastic bag. I wonder if it's still in that plastic
22 bag. I wonder if it could be put back into the plastic
23 bag just so the jury can feel the weight of the Bruni.
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: May I have it first because
25 I haven't had it yet?
1 MR THOMAS: I understand it does not have the magazine in it
2 and the magazine itself is relatively heavy. (Handed)
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I see. Thank you. (Handed)
4 (The weapon was passed around the jury)
5 MR THOMAS: Would you agree it's a bit of a weight, isn't
7 A. It is, it's definitely heavier, I would suggest, than my
8 Glock SLP.
9 Q. It's a heavy gun, isn't it? You have felt the weight?
10 A. It's definitely heavier than my service issue firearm.
11 Q. As I have already indicated, that is without the
12 magazine and with the magazine it would be heavier.
13 A. It would be slightly -- I don't know the make of the
14 magazine. Was that plastic or was it metal, sir?
15 Q. I understand that we have the magazine at some point
16 perhaps we can test it with it. I won't ask --
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I do not think we need to worry
18 about it with this witness.
19 MR THOMAS: In any event, let's come back to this point in
20 your evidence. There you are, and if I can just remind
21 you of your evidence -- just bear with me one moment.
23 Do you remember being questioned about this in the
24 Hutchinson-Foster criminal trial?
25 A. I do, sir, yes.
1 Q. I wonder if we can just call up page CHF3519. If you
2 could just follow it on the screen with me, I'm reading
3 from letter C.
4 A. Okay, thank you, sir.
5 Q. Do you see, the question that you're asked by Mr Denney,
6 who was counsel in that case, is:
7 "Question: The gun is still in his hand?"
8 This is after you fired the second shot, all right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That's the point we are taking matters up.
11 "Question: The gun is still in his hand?
12 "Answer: Absolutely. Yes.
13 "Question: You saw it?
14 "Answer: Absolutely.
15 "Question: And was he in that position that you have
16 just described when you fired the second shot?
17 "Answer: As I said, when I fired the second shot, or
18 the first shot has impacted on his chest so the first
19 shot was when the gun was moved away from his body. The
20 round has impacted on him, which has caused his body to
21 move to the right slightly, and the gun, or the barrel
22 of the gun, has moved towards my general direction,
23 so --
24 "Question: Stop there in that position, if you
25 would. Was that the position that you are showing the
1 jury, that Mark Duggan was in when you fired the second
3 "Answer: When I fired the second shot, yes.
4 "Question: Right arm -- just stay there for a moment
5 if you would?
6 "Answer: Sorry.
7 "Question: Right arm close to his side, forearm
8 pointing outwards and pretty much forwards?
9 "Answer: Yes. Again, I can't say what his left arm
10 was doing -- "
11 Just pause there. What you appear to be saying in
12 the criminal trial was his right arm was close to his
13 side with his forearm pointing outwards, pretty much
15 A. Yes, like how I've described (indicates) so his forearm
16 is pointing forwards.
17 Q. All right. Then you go on to say:
18 "-- because I was totally focused on what's going to
19 cause me ..."
20 I think that should be "harm".
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "... So that's what I'm saying."
23 Just pause there. This morning you said, I think
24 your expression was you were "glued to the gun"? That's
25 what you said this morning?
1 A. I cannot remember the specific word but I was totally
2 focused on the gun, yes.
3 Q. All right. Then Mr Denney puts to you.
4 "Question: But slightly flinched to his right?
5 "Answer: Yes.
6 "Question: Yes. Thank you.
7 "Answer: Thank you. (Pause)
8 "Question: Yes. And he fired the second round as
9 you told us, and what effect did that have on Mr Duggan?
10 "Answer: As I said, the round appeared to impact on
11 his right arm or his bicep, and what I remember, he fell
12 to the floor.
13 "Question: Which way did he fall? Forwards,
14 backwards or sideways?
15 "Answer: Uh, my recollection he fell backwards from
16 what I can recall.
17 "Question: What did he do with his hands?
18 "Answer: I don't remember. I think he may have,
19 I don't know which hand. I seem to recall, again, he
20 may have clenched his chest but I can't remember to be
21 honest with you. But he --
22 "Judge: Do not speculate.
23 "Answer: Sorry. Sorry, my Lord. He's fallen to the
24 floor. I suppose the answer is I don't know what he
25 done with his hands.
1 "Mr Denney: Do you have any memory of his hands
2 going to his chest?
3 "Answer: I can't remember to be honest. It's
4 obviously happened so quickly.
5 "Question: I anticipate, if one has a gun pointed at
6 you, one would tend to focus on the gun. Would that be
8 "Answer: Yes, obviously, in -- the way I describe
9 this moment is, like as I said earlier on, it's a freeze
10 frame moment. When -- I was totally focused on his
11 hands and what's in his hands, because that's what's
12 going to cause me harm and cause my colleagues harm. So
13 after I fired the second shot, as I say, in the blink of
14 an eye, one second the gun was there; when I looked
15 again, it was gone."
16 Let's just pause there. Let me ask you a question.
17 Just so we can have this in our mind's eye. There you
18 are, this threat -- which you're trained to assess, and
19 you say you did assess; is that right?
20 A. That's correct, yes. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Your words this morning, your eyes were glued to the
23 A. Yes, focused on the gun, yes.
24 Q. I'm just repeating the words -- I'm just using the words
25 that you used this morning.
1 A. Okay, sir.
2 Q. You fire your shot, you would agree, wouldn't you, that
3 you have to ensure that Mr Duggan is no longer a threat;
5 A. That's correct. We were looking to -- again, I do not
6 want to use police terminology but we wanted to make
7 sure the threat is neutralised, so you want the threat
8 to be stopped, if that makes sense.
9 Q. The threat here was this is an armed man who was
10 pointing a gun at you and you had your eye on the gun?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Your eyes that you never took off the gun?
13 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
14 Q. So tell us what happened to the gun?
15 A. Again, sir, I would love to be able to say to you -- sit
16 here and say I saw the gun fly over the fence after the
17 second shot but I didn't. I am not going to put
18 something down on paper that I haven't seen. I'm sure
19 it would clear up a hell of a lot of stuff if I was able
20 to say "Yes, I saw the gun fly through the air and it
21 landed wherever" but I didn't see it. So I am not going
22 to sit here, you know, nearly two years on. I wasn't
23 going to do that at the time or in the days after and
24 put down something that I didn't see.
25 Q. May I suggest --
1 A. So again, sir, the answer is I didn't see what happened
2 to the gun.
3 Q. May I suggest one thing you don't see is you don't see
4 Mr Duggan, after you've shot him, do any sudden
5 movement; that's correct, isn't it?
6 A. It depends what you mean by sudden movement, sir.
7 Q. You don't see him do any jerking movement with his arms,
8 do you?
9 A. I don't remember, sir, no.
10 Q. Because that is something -- bearing in mind that you
11 were totally focused on the gun and the gun was in his
12 hand, correct?
13 A. It was, yes, after I fired the second shot.
14 Q. You are nodding but I am just saying that so it picks up
15 on the tape.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The one thing you would have seen, being totally focused
18 on his hand/threat would have been if he had made any
19 jerky or throwing movement; you would have seen that?
20 A. You're saying I should have seen it or, you know, you're
21 assuming I should see it.
22 Q. I'm saying you would have seen that?
23 A. I can't answer if you would've or you didn't. What I'm
24 telling you, sir -- I hope I'm answering this
25 question --
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Your recollection of what you did or
2 didn't see. You didn't see.
3 A. My recollection is, at the time, I didn't see -- after
4 I fired the second shot, I don't know where the gun
6 MR THOMAS: You see, may I suggest, that the reason why you
7 don't know where the gun went is because Mr Duggan
8 didn't have a gun on him, did he, when he got out of the
10 A. Mr Thomas, I appreciate you have to put that across but
11 that's complete rubbish, do you know what I mean?
12 Mr Duggan, Mark Duggan, had a gun when he got out of
13 that minicab. I'm 100 per cent convinced, on 4 August
14 as I am today, okay, that this moment has lived with me
15 for the last two years. I keep running this moment
16 through my head day in, day out and Mark Duggan had
17 a gun, he presented a threat to me and the only option
18 I had was to defend myself and to open fire. So very
19 clearly, Mr Thomas, Mark Duggan had a firearm when he
20 faced me.
21 Q. Help me with this: as a police officer, you know that
22 there are times when you're going to want to interview
23 people in terms of carrying out an investigation; would
24 that be fair?
25 A. As a suspect or as a witness, sir?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. As a suspect or a witness?
3 Q. Either. There are going to be times when you are going
4 to want to, either as a suspect or as a witness?
5 A. Yes, there is, sir, yes.
6 Q. The one thing that, you know, you would want to do when
7 you were -- if you wanted to interview somebody, is you
8 would want to ensure that the account they gave was
9 their own account.
10 A. Absolutely, sir, yes.
11 Q. That's important, isn't it?
12 A. Absolutely because it's your recollection of the events.
13 Q. So, for instance, if somebody was, say -- you know, you
14 had a series of questions that you wanted to ask them,
15 you would want to give them an opportunity to answer
16 those questions but you would not necessarily want to
17 flag up the questions that you would want to ask them,
18 so that they could go away and rehearse them or discuss
19 them with somebody else; would you agree?
20 A. It depends what -- again, sir, I probably suggest it
21 depends if you're asking them as a suspect. Obviously,
22 if you are going to interview somebody who's under
23 arrest you would not necessarily disclose the questions.
24 However, if they were a significant witness you may well
25 give them the questions.
1 Q. You see, when you -- do you remember I was asking you
2 questions earlier on about how this incident had lived
3 with you, how many statements you had made? It's right,
4 isn't it, that you were asked by the IPCC to give
5 an interview, weren't you?
6 A. Yes I was, sir, yes.
7 Q. Do you remember what you said to the IPCC?
8 A. I attended interview in November 2012, sir.
9 Q. Do you remember what you said to the IPCC when they
10 wanted to ask you a series of questions?
11 A. Yes, I did, sir. I declined.
12 Q. You said, just to remind you -- if anybody wants to
13 follow, I am not asking for it to be up on the screen
14 but it's CD1852 -- you said, and I quote:
15 "I'm here today because I want to be helpful and
16 transparent. I want to help the investigation as best
17 I can. Obviously I've given statements in the past and
18 obviously I'm here today because I want to help. But
19 obviously I would like to know what you're trying to ask
20 me so that probably, from my point of view, if you tell
21 me what you want from me, in the nicest possible way,
22 I'll seek advice, like I say I want to help the Inquiry,
23 I'll digest the questions that you've asked me and then
24 I'll come back to you. It might not be today. I'll
25 come back to you as soon as possible with a response."
1 And so on.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You know, in terms of a police investigation, you were
4 given several opportunities, and you produced -- do you
5 remember I listed all the witness statements?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This is an event that you say you've been living with
8 every day and you wanted to be helpful. Why didn't you
9 just simply answer the questions that the IPCC wanted to
10 ask you; why did you decline?
11 A. Okay, there's a number of points there, if I may try and
12 deal with them all together.
13 When a police shooting happens we're guided by the
14 Association of Chief Police Officers Manual of Guidance,
15 okay, and that came about in -- I think, the edition
16 would have been the 2011 edition. At that time, the
17 Manual of Guidance stated that if you're involved in
18 a police shooting we have to follow certain guidelines
19 and those guidelines is you can either decide to go to
20 be interviewed or go and give written statements.
21 Now, for me personally, I wanted to be open and
22 accountable from the earliest opportunity, hence why
23 I gave a verbal account at the scene at 18.50. I also
24 gave a statement that night, and then 48 hours later
25 I gave a 24-page statement. So for that period in time
1 we were not asked to be interviewed, we were asked to
2 give an account, as per the ACPO Manual of Guidance.
3 Obviously a couple of months go past, then what I'm
4 led to believe is the IPCC asked my solicitor and our
5 legal team if we would want to be interviewed. Again
6 for me personally, I thought the best way for me to give
7 the evidence across was to do it in written format and,
8 again, adhering to the guidelines, which are written
9 down in the ACPO Manual of Guidance, I decided the best
10 way I could give the information across wasn't to be
11 interviewed, but was to put it down on paper, okay?
12 That happened in January.
13 Again, a couple of months went past and again the
14 IPCC wanted some more questions answering. They sent
15 a list of I think in excess of 250 questions they wanted
16 answering and, again, I decided -- I thought about which
17 is the best way to answer this, so I went through the
18 questions logically and I wrote, I think it was another
19 14-page statement, and that was in May 2012.
20 A couple of months go past again where we have no
21 contact. Again, the IPCC asked, in August, from what
22 I can recall, if we can assist with other bits and
23 pieces. So again IPCC asked if you could do A, B, C
24 and, again, within a very timely period of time, again,
25 I've done another statement, always adhering to that
1 ACPO Manual of Guidance.
2 Then in November last year, the IPCC asked me to be
3 interviewed because they wanted one question cleared up
4 and, again, I attended interview. They've asked me the
5 question, which was about the order of shots, and,
6 again, for me personally, the best way, after getting
7 some legal advice, was I'm going to think about it
8 overnight because it's an important point, I've thought
9 about it overnight and then within a day or so I've
10 presented -- I've written up a two and a half-page
12 So for me personally, I can say hand on heart I've
13 assisted in investigations throughout, I've adhered to
14 the ACPO Manual of Guidance throughout this process and
15 I've given everything possible I can to the IPCC in
16 written format.
17 Q. V53, it's not very transparent though, is it?
18 A. You're telling me that's not transparent, sir?
20 Q. V53, you taking the question away and answering
21 a question without nobody knowing how you will come up
22 with the answer, who you're discussing with, it's not
23 very transparent, is it?
24 A. I totally disagree, sir, because, again, if I can read
25 something out to you in our statement format, sir, at
1 the top of every statement:
2 "This statement consisting of three pages each
3 signed by me is true to the best of my knowledge and
4 belief and I make it known that if it is tendered in
5 evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I've
6 wilfully stated anything which I know to be false or do
7 not believe to be true."
8 I have to sign that, sir, so that is being open and
10 Q. V53, it's not transparent when you take a statement
11 away, a question away, ask what the question is, take it
12 away and provide an answer in a way that the IPCC cannot
13 see how you are formulating that answer; that's not very
14 transparent, is it?
15 A. I disagree with you, sir. Again, if we look at the ACPO
16 Manual of Guidance that was in place at that time,
17 actually the newer version, which I believe is the third
18 edition, there is a part in that which states how the
19 investigative body would like information and they can
20 either take a statement themselves, the IPCC can take
21 a statement from us, or we can do the statement.
22 So, again sir, I totally disagree with what you're
23 saying. We have adhered to the ACPO Manual of Guidance
24 and the procedure which is in place to deal with police
25 shootings. So I disagree with you totally.
1 Q. I've nearly finished, just two more questions. In
2 relation to the shots that you fired, you accept this:
3 if there was no gun in Mark Duggan's hand, you would
4 have had no justification to shoot him, agreed?
5 A. If he wasn't posing me a threat I wouldn't have fired.
6 Q. No. My question was: if there was no gun in Mark
7 Duggan's hand, you would have had no justification to
8 shoot him; do you agree?
9 A. I would have no justification but secondly, sir,
10 I wouldn't have fired.
11 Q. Secondly, in relation to the order of shots, okay -- now
12 we've heard your evidence, that the -- you say you shot
13 the chest first --
14 A. (Nods)
15 Q. -- but this much is clear, and I think you can accept
16 this: the chest shot was the fatal shot?
17 A. Yes. I believe, sir, yes, I believe so, sir, yes.
18 Q. Now, I'm going to suggest the evidence indicates that
19 the first shot was the non-fatal shot, in other words
20 the shot in the bicep that went through, penetrated,
21 Mark Duggan and hit your colleague.
22 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Some evidence suggests that but it's
23 not actually 100 per cent, so perhaps the question might
24 be better framed.
25 MR THOMAS: Let me rephrase the question.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Yes.
2 MR THOMAS: The shot that hit the bicep, yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'm suggesting that was the first shot?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Do you want me to reply to that, sir?
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Your account of what happened, you
9 have given it a number of times now.
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You've been asked about it. This
12 has been put to you. Anything there to make you think
14 A. No. Sir, I appreciate why we are hearing bits and
15 pieces. Again my perception at the time was shot one
16 was the chest and shot two was the arm. That was my
17 perception at the time.
18 MR THOMAS: If shot one was the arm shot, I'm going to
19 suggest there was no justification because that would
20 have disabled the man and there would have been no
21 justification for the second shot.
22 A. Again, sir, you're presuming the first round hit him on
23 the arm, that's your presumption and your presumption,
24 if I pick this up right, you're saying the first shot
25 would have disarmed him?
1 Q. In this way, follow: first shot, horizontal, hits him in
2 the arm -- and I'm going to suggest what the science is
3 going to show is after you've shot him in the arm far
4 from flinching backwards, bringing the gun into your
5 direction, what the first shot does is knock Mark
6 forward so the -- if the gun is in his hand -- I am not
7 suggesting there was a gun in his hand but just running
8 with your account -- he would have gone forward, moving
9 the gun away from you (indicates), do you follow, which
10 is why --
11 A. Can I just stop you there? If that's what you're
12 saying, that the gun is in his hand, as you're leaning
13 forward, the gun would have done this sweeping movement.
14 That's what you're suggesting, am I picking that up
15 okay? Have I got that wrong?
16 Q. No. Firstly, I'm not suggesting there was a gun in his
17 hand at all. I'm running with your account?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. I'm saying if you're right and there was a gun in his
20 hand, the first shot, the science indicates, is the --
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Mr Thomas, I'm going to come in on
22 this. I've been very patient. The position is here, as
23 I explained when Mr Underwood was asking questions is
24 that, through the Coroner's team, a number of scientists
25 have been approached, the jury will hear about their
1 conclusions, and I felt it fair that Mr Underwood --
2 I am not sure whether he wanted to or not, but I asked
3 him to -- deal with the scenario with the dummy, to
4 allow V53 to give his account to see whether there was
5 anything that that would help his memory.
6 Now, as I understand it, all the scientific evidence
7 that the jury will hear is really coming through my team
8 and the work that they have done since this.
9 Really, I think that what's happened is that this
10 has been put now to V53, he understands that there are
11 some evidence -- pieces of evidence that come which do
12 not necessarily match up precisely with his account, but
13 he's saying very firmly that "This is my recollection,
14 virtually nothing that you're going to say, certainly
15 not anybody else, is going to change that recollection
16 about the mechanics of the incident". So I think that
17 really we've gone far enough on that.
18 MR THOMAS: Just bear with me one moment. Thank you.
19 Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Anything else on behalf of the
21 family? One thing I wanted to ask, actually, I don't
22 want this to appear to be shutting them up is really to
23 do with your belief, because that's an important thing.
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Apart from what actually happened,
1 the jury are going to have to work out themselves, come
2 to their conclusions, but part of what they're going to
3 have to do is look at your honestly held belief.
4 A. Indeed so, yes.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: At the beginning of that, you have
6 the briefing about Mark Duggan.
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You don't know much about him but
9 you are then told, because that's the way that it works:
10 you get briefed you know about the Tottenham Man Dem,
11 you had your previous experiences with that gang
13 A. Indeed, sir.
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Were you told that Mark Duggan was
15 a man who actually has been described in this very room
16 by a very senior acting Superintendent as a man who was
17 very, very lightly convicted.
18 A. What I recall, sir, is we had a briefing which gave the
19 overview of the operation. It gave some specific
20 information which was, I think, dated in July, that
21 Mark Duggan had access to a firearm that was stored at
22 a girlfriend's address. Then it went through his
23 previous convictions, which were -- yes, he had previous
24 convictions but nothing really stood out. The only
25 thing that stood out for me was he was disqualified from
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: He seems to have respected that
4 A. Yes, he did, by using the minicab. The only thing
5 I would say, sir, is, again, the information was Mark
6 Duggan was a high ranking member of the TMD. That's
7 information I was given, and, again, from experience
8 with dealing with gangs and bits and pieces, I suppose
9 it's like a business, you know, you have your chain of
10 command and then you've got your foot soldiers and a lot
11 of time the senior officers of the gang don't
12 necessarily get their hands dirty, it's our experience.
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Had he been convicted of armed bank
14 robbery and been to prison for many years you would have
15 been told that, wouldn't you?
16 A. Yes, we would have been, yes.
17 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: So you have that impression of him.
18 A. Again, the only impression I had of him, what I recall
19 was he was a high ranking member of the TMD. His
20 previous convictions didn't really bother me, I suppose,
21 for a better word. But I was aware he was disqualified
22 from driving, which sort of gave me -- the mindset was
23 if he was driving a vehicle that we needed to stop
24 there's a high probability he's going to fail to stop
25 for us, and that was a piece of information that really
1 stuck in my mind at the time.
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you. So having stopped the
3 cab, you've still got this picture in your mind which
4 you tell us about.
5 A. Yes.
6 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The belief that here is a high
7 ranking member of a gang with this background.
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: He gets out of the vehicle and goes
10 towards W42.
11 A. Yes.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: He doesn't shoot W42?
13 A. No.
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Does that come into your
16 A. No. Again, sir, I'm sure it was mentioned before, maybe
17 by Mr Underwood when he spoke about the tactic of the
18 stop that we do. I think the phrase that was used was
19 "shock and awe". So when we do a stop we want to use
20 speed, surprise, physical and verbal domination. So by
21 doing the speed we're stopping the vehicle at speed,
22 we're using surprise and, unfortunately, we're not --
23 we're not -- we have to be aggressive, we're using
24 controlled aggression. So again we're shouting loudly,
25 you know, we're pointing guns at people. So again we're
1 looking for domination.
2 A lot of the time, these criminals will just go
3 hands up or (indicates) they'll comply or we'll actually
4 just get hands on and just drag them out of the car,
5 handcuff them without any force other than that being
7 Again, when we stop people, they have three options:
8 they can either comply, as I've explained, yes, hands
9 up, "Fair cop, guv, I suppose"; they can either escape,
10 or attempt an escape; or they can fight their way out.
11 So once we put the stop in, Mr Duggan still had those
12 three options in place.
13 Once he started darting across the back seat of the
14 car, once the stop went in, that convinced me that he
15 was looking to escape. So my mindset straightaway was
16 he's looking to go on his toes, for a better word. By
17 his action, jumping out of the car at pace with a spring
18 in his step, again, the location of the stop was a good
19 location because it was contained, front by Alpha,
20 Bravo, Charlie, and we were fortunate that we had the
21 fence line which you've probably seen at Ferry Lane to
22 contain him. So really he was contained 360 degrees.
23 So, again, the only option he had was to try and
24 escape or fight his way out. As he's turned to face me,
25 he obviously has a firearm and I --
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Come back to my question. He's
2 chosen not to shoot his way out against W42.
3 A. Yes.
4 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Behind you are a number of officers.
5 A. Yes. As I say there would have been me and W70, who's
6 the Hatton gunner.
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Are they pouring out of the control
8 car or not?
9 A. The control car, yes, they may well have been deploying
10 as well, but we would have been out before then. But
11 I think, again, my recollection, sir, I haven't been to
12 Ferry Lane since, but I think there would have been
13 a gap between the fence line and the control car,
14 I might be wrong there, where he could have nipped into
15 the grassed area but I might be wrong. I can't --
16 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: In your mind now, forget the
17 mechanics of it, so he hasn't shot W42.
18 A. No.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: He turns round, you see the gun.
20 A. Yes.
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: This is the point that the jury
22 again will also concentrate on, apart from all the other
23 things they have to concentrate on: your actions, were
24 they absolutely necessary?
25 A. Yes.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Were they?
2 A. Again, sir, I think they were absolutely necessary in
3 the circumstances. Again, firearms officers only do
4 discharge their firearms when absolutely necessary,
5 okay? A firearms officer must only discharge a firearm
6 once they have an honest held belief that, due to the
7 immediacy or proximity of the threat posed, the
8 immediate discharge of firearms is absolutely necessary
9 in the circumstances.
10 We have to learn that word perfect when we do every
11 course because that is the fundamental part when we
12 discharge a firearm. If I may break that down, sir,
13 okay, so we must have an honest held belief. We have
14 powers to use force and I'm sure, sir, you'll probably
15 go through the law further down the line. But, for me,
16 I've used my common law power which allows me, if I have
17 an honest held belief, that I can do what's called
18 a pre-emptive strike, whereby I have an honest held
19 belief that there's an immediate threat to me or one of
20 my colleagues.
21 I don't have to wait for the first punch to be
22 thrown or the first shot to be fired. If I have
23 an honest held belief that he is going to shoot me,
24 I can fire first. I hope I'm explaining that okay, sir,
25 within the common law power, and that's the power I was
1 using on that day.
2 That force has to be absolutely necessary in the
3 circumstances. When we say we're accountable, every
4 round that we fire has to be accounted for. So again
5 when I explained this morning, the tipping point, as it
6 were, or the line in the sand, when Mr Duggan had the
7 gun like this (indicates), yes, it's a threat but it
8 wasn't an immediate threat to my life, okay, so I was
9 hoping that he would drop it. But the tipping point is
10 when he actually moved it away from his body (indicates)
11 that to me is the tipping point where I have now
12 an honest held belief that he's going to shoot me or he
13 he's going to shoot me in that motion (indicates).
14 So, again, I've assessed and I've discharged one
15 round and then I've reassessed again. So again, I'm
16 still -- I think you spoke about the conflict management
17 model, the sort of --
18 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: We will not deal with that at the
20 A. Okay.
21 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Let's stay in Ferry Lane, at that
22 point you have body armour on.
23 A. Yes.
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Tell us what you're wearing.
25 A. I think we might actually have a set here.
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: That's why I'm asking you about it.
2 Let's have a look, see what you were wearing. (Handed)
3 A. On that day I was in plain clothes so I was wearing
4 boots, combat trousers, I was wearing like a polo top
5 and I was wearing a jacket. Underneath my Polo top
6 I would be wearing body armour and this is covert police
7 ballistic body armour. It's light weight, okay, because
8 when you wear it for 16, 20 hours a day it's going to
9 get really smelly and bits and pieces, it's not that
10 nice to wear.
11 This will give you ballistic protection up to 9mm
12 rounds and 3.57mm rounds. So again what I mean by that
13 is that will stop a handgun or like a Magnum handgun.
14 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: If the gun that you believed you saw
15 in Mr Duggan's hand was shot at that, you would have
16 pretty good confidence that it wouldn't go through it.
17 A. I would not like to give it a go, but it would knock me
18 on the floor, I would suggest.
19 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: But not kill you.
20 A. I cannot say yes, sir, because within this body armour
21 there's no trauma protection, there's no trauma plates.
22 It's very light weight because, again, if you're running
23 after people, you don't want to wear -- I don't know if
24 you've seen airport armed police wearing big heavy black
25 body armour. That's very heavy, very uncomfortable to
1 wear. At least with this, it's covert, it offers you
2 some protection up to 9mm. Again, if we were going up
3 against somebody with a higher calibre weapon, such as
4 a machine pistol or like an AK47, we would uparm. So
5 again we would wear this but put other body armour on
7 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Back to Ferry Lane.
8 A. Sorry, I've gone too far away.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You had that on, I might need to get
10 Mr Underwood or Mr Thomas to hold it up for the people
11 upstairs looking at it, but you had that on.
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Does that go into your calculation
14 as to what is absolutely necessary, the fact that the
15 risks to you are, to a degree, reduced if someone shot
16 at your core?
17 A. I would probably say no, sir. Because you're so close,
18 again if we were looking to -- the best ballistic
19 protection for us is behind a big brick wall or by the
20 bonnet of a car where it will offer us the best
21 ballistic protection. Sometimes you have to minimise
22 that risk and that's the only thing you can rely on.
23 However, sir, in the nicest possible way, that is only
24 body armour and you're going to have a really, really
25 bad day still if you're shot with 9mm rounds even
1 wearing body armour, I would suggest.
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: All right. As I just talked about
3 that, I wondered if perhaps the usher or the officer
4 with you could walk into shot. Walk over to where
5 Mr Underwood is. Turn round so that those upstairs
6 could just see this body armour that was being worn.
7 All the other officers were wearing this, were they?
8 A. Yes, sir, yes.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Would you describe what you were
10 wearing as being in full uniform or plain clothes in the
11 words that you used in your notebook?
12 A. I've said plain clothes because I was wearing combat
13 trousers, however the raid jacket we were wearing, it is
14 a police issue jacket. It is plain clothes, however
15 once you flip out the police sign at the front and the
16 flip side at the back, it's -- clearly you're a police
17 officer. So personally I would say I'm in plain clothes
18 but wearing the baseball cap and that jacket you could
19 argue in uniform as well, I suppose.
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Well, some have.
21 Thank you. That's what I wanted to -- perhaps
22 I ought to give you this opportunity now before others
23 may or may not want to ask you any more questions. One
24 of the points that you might like to just comment on is
25 obviously that the MP5 is the weapon that you chose --
1 A. Yes.
2 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- and you are trained to choose in
3 this situation.
4 A. (Nods)
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: It's been raised as to whether
6 either it might have been better or easier for you to
7 use your Glock, which is smaller and more
8 manoeuverable --
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: -- and/or the Taser.
11 A. Okay.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Can you just make your comments
13 about this?
14 A. I'll probably deal with the Glock first of all. The
15 Glock is our secondary weapon, okay? So a Glock only
16 has really a range of 20 to 25 metres, whereas a MP5 has
17 a range of up to 50 metres. A MP5 is far more accurate
18 and reliable than a Glock because you have a better
19 sight system. On top of that, if you have a malfunction
20 with your MP5 -- we call it an immediate action drill.
21 So if you're actually facing a threat with a MP5 and you
22 pull the trigger and the weapon malfunctions or you have
23 a stoppage, what the drill is: you ditch the MP5 because
24 it's a piece of metal to you now, throw that to one side
25 then you go for your Glock and that's your backup
1 weapon, whereas if you went for your Glock first of all
2 and you have a malfunction on the Glock, you're sitting
3 there with a piece of metal in your hands doing no good
4 to you.
5 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Certainly for the shock and awe, the
6 MP5 obviously looks much more frightening.
7 A. It is. It's a far more reliable, far more accurate
8 weapon for what we need it for. Again, the other option
9 we had with an MP5 is, it's a bit of a drastic action
10 but we can actually muzzle strike people as well, which
11 is actually hit somebody with the weapon in the chest
13 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Taser?
14 A. Taser, again, the only way I can describe it -- I think
15 I explained Taser this morning. I suppose when I teach
16 this I sort of go back to really basics. I think
17 hopefully we've all played Rock, Paper, Scissors, where,
18 you know, scissors will always beat paper. A firearm
19 will always beat a Taser because a Taser will not
20 achieve immediate incapacitation on a subject. If
21 you're going up against somebody with a gun, you want to
22 go up against that person with a gun, because if you go
23 up against them with a Taser, the Taser -- you may -- it
24 may not work because no Taser is 100 per cent effective.
25 Again, the barbs may not penetrate clothing if it's
1 more than two inches thick, you may miss or one of the
2 darts may not penetrate, and so on and so forth. What
3 we're trying to achieve is immediate incapacitation and
4 if we had have went with a Taser on that day, it
5 would -- it just wasn't the right tactical option.
6 Again, once -- if there wasn't a firearms threat,
7 again, I would reassess and then I probably would have
8 ditched my MP5 and went to a Taser. But because I was
9 faced with a firearms threat, that's why I used the
10 firearm in response.
11 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you very much for dealing with
12 all those matters, let me just see now.
13 The next person will be Mr Keith to ask questions.
14 MR KEITH: I have no questions, thank you.
15 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: The next person after that I think
16 would be Mr Butt.
17 MR BUTT: No thank you, sir.
18 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Then I have those representing
19 Serious Organised Crime Agency, as it then was. No,
20 right. I do not believe -- I might have Mrs Auben (?).
21 Any questions you might have? No.
22 Mr Glasson?
23 MR GLASSON: No, thank you sir.
24 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Mr Stern? How many questions do you
1 MR STERN: I have just a few, if people will bear with me
2 for less than ten minutes.
3 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: I think we're happy to bear with
4 you, Mr Stern. Thank you.
5 Questions by MR STERN
6 MR STERN: First of all, you were asked about being
7 transparent and you said that you made a number of
8 statements and you were taken through those dates. Did
9 you also give evidence in the prosecution of Kevin
10 Hutchinson-Foster, first of all in September 2012 and
11 then in January 2013?
12 A. I did indeed, sir, yes.
13 Q. Called by the prosecution, you were asked questions by
14 prosecution counsel and then cross-examined, as I think
15 Mr Thomas pointed out, by Mr Denney who appeared for
16 Mr Hutchinson-Foster?
17 A. I was indeed, in September and January this year, yes.
18 Q. Could I ask, please, that we just have CS81 up on the
19 screen. If you look at the lower half of that
20 statement, you were asked by the IPCC to expand or to
21 explain what it was that Mr Duggan did when he got out
22 of the minicab.
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. You put there:
25 "In relation to how Mr Duggan exited the minicab,
1 I say he got out at pace. What my recollection is, that
2 he jumped out as opposed to step out. My impression was
3 that he was getting out of the minicab as quickly as
4 possible. He had a spring in his step.
5 "In relation to the movement and actions of
6 Mr Duggan after he exited, I describe this as a freeze
7 frame moment."
8 I think that's what you told us today:
9 "I was totally focused on his hand movements so
10 cannot be sure about his actions and movements. My
11 perception was he was more or less faced on with me with
12 the handgun across his stomach in his right hand.
13 I cannot say if he was moving or standing still.
14 "In relation to my position when shots were fired,
15 I cannot be specific. I was on the footpath. I don't
16 think I was forward of the front of my covert armed
17 response vehicle at the time the first shot was fired.
18 I do not believe that I moved when I fired the second
20 "In relation into the position of Mr Duggan when
21 shots were fired, I cannot be specific. He was on the
22 foot path, somewhere between the minicab and fence."
23 Obviously we know that he came out of the minicab
24 and he ended up by the fence because that's where you
25 carried out the first aid.
1 A. Yes it was, sir, yes.
2 Q. Did you see him get from the minicab, in other words
3 running in that position, or not?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. We have heard from others that he was running.
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. You didn't see?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Your focus was on --
10 When he went to the ground did he go to the ground
11 where you carried out the first aid?
12 A. It's my recollection he did, sir. He wasn't moved until
13 the air ambulance turned up.
14 Q. We are going to hear from them. They moved him, in
15 fact, further from the railings more into the centre of
16 the pavement?
17 A. Indeed they did, sir, yes.
18 Q. You've told the jury that, in relation to both of the
19 shots that you fired, that Mr Duggan had the gun in his
21 A. He did indeed, sir, yes.
22 Q. You told the jury that, in relation to both of those
23 shots you had an honestly held belief that he was
24 a threat, a significant threat to you.
25 A. Yes, he was, sir, yes.
1 Q. Would you have fired at Mr Duggan knowing that W42 or
2 one of the other officers was behind if you had not felt
3 that threat?
4 A. Again ... one thing we're trained to do is always assess
5 your backdrop. Because, you know, we don't want to
6 shoot where there may be, like, a school playground in
7 the background or one of your colleagues and bits and
8 pieces because, again, because of over-penetration, so
9 on and so forth, you may have -- what I describe as
10 a blue on blue where you may shoot your colleague or
12 I was aware that W42 would have been there or
13 thereabouts behind Mr Duggan. However, the threat was
14 so imminent I only -- the only choice I had was to open
15 fire to defend myself and the colleague behind me and
16 I sort of made a ... a dynamic risk assessment that it
17 was more important to open fire than to let the threat
18 carry on.
19 Q. I want to just ask you lastly, please, about
20 this: obviously we are sitting in a court room some time
21 later and examining, millisecond by millisecond,
22 something that happened very quickly.
23 You've been a police officer for a long time, and
24 indeed an armed officer for a long time and a specialist
25 firearms officer for some time.
1 Even though you have had all that training, just
2 help with trying to convey, if you can, the feeling of
3 having a gun pointed in your direction.
4 A. (Pause) It's weird and ... today was the first time
5 I've actually seen the gun sort of face up and it's not
6 nice, even though I know it's safe and so on and so
8 It's not a nice feeling, to ... you know ... I'm
9 a dad, I've got the best job in the world being a dad,
10 and, you know, when somebody pulls a gun on you --
11 I want to go home and see my children, I want to go back
12 and see my wife at the end of the night. I come into
13 work, you know, to earn a living; I come from a working
14 background. All I want to do is, as cheesy as it
15 sounds, help people.
16 When somebody pulls a gun on you, your world is --
17 I don't want to use industrial language but it's like
18 your world is like "Oh, sugar, honey, iced tea", because
19 somebody is pointing a gun at you. And I hope it never
20 happens again, sir, to be honest with you.
21 MR STERN: I said I would be less than ten minutes and I
22 have been. Thank you very much.
23 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Well done, Mr Stern. Mr Underwood?
24 MR UNDERWOOD: Nothing arising, thank you very much.
25 Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER
1 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Could I just ask you, a final thing,
2 about W70.
3 A. Yes.
4 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: You're aware of him close by? What
5 can you recall of him doing?
6 A. I don't remember anything. He was my Hatton gunner,
7 I don't remember anything he'd done except assist me
8 with the first aid on Mr Duggan.
9 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Did he or anyone near you catch
10 Mr Duggan before he fell?
11 A. I don't remember anyone catching him, sir.
12 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Okay. Right. That's all I wanted
13 to clarify. You have no recollection of that?
14 A. No, sir.
15 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: No. Right, well, thank you very
16 much, members of the jury, for sitting a little bit
17 later. It's, as you can understand, much better for
18 that witness to be concluded. So thank you.
19 A. Thank you.
20 THE ASSISTANT CORONER: Thank you, V53, that does conclude
21 your evidence; you do not need to come back tomorrow.
22 I'll ask then for the cameras to be turned off
23 upstairs and I'll ask then, thank you, members of the
24 jury, to be ready for 10.30 tomorrow morning then,
14 (4.43 pm)
15 (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Wednesday,
16 16 October 2013)
V53 (sworn) ..........................................2
Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................2
V53 (continued) .....................................70
V53 (continued) ....................................103
Questions by MR THOMAS .........................104
Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........180
Questions by MR STERN ..........................194
Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........198
PDF of transcript
Evidence referred to in this transcript: