Transcript of the Hearing 15 October 2013

 

 

 

           1                                       Tuesday, 15 October 2013

           2   (10.30 am)

 

                                             1
 

 

 

 

           5                  (In the presence of the jury)

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

           7       jury.

           8           Yes, Mr Underwood?

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning.  May I call V53, please.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll ask for V53 to come into

          11       court, please.

          12                           V53 (sworn)

          13                   (The witness was anonymised)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  Have a seat

          15       would you, please, firstly, then I can indicate the

          16       cameras may now be turned back on and then Mr Underwood

          17       will ask you some usual questions.

          18                    Questions by MR UNDERWOOD

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  Good morning.

          20   A.  Good morning, sir.

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  My name is Underwood and I'm counsel to the

          22       Inquest and I'll start the questions off.  There should

          23       be a list in front of you with names and initials and

          24       numbers under them; can you look down and find V53?

          25   A.  I do indeed.


                                             2
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Is your name next to that?

           2   A.  It is indeed, sir, yes.

           3   Q.  Thank you very much.  V53, obviously I'm going to be

           4       asking you about the events of 4 August 2011 but before

           5       we do that can I ask you about your training and

           6       background.  When did you join the police force?

           7   A.  In 1997.

           8   Q.  As a Constable in ordinary duties?

           9   A.  Yes, I was, yes, I spent four years on response team,

          10       which is your -- on the beat responding to your 999

          11       calls.

          12   Q.  So from 1997 through to 2001 you were doing that?

          13   A.  Yes, I was, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  What did you do then?

          15   A.  I then went on to the Territorial Support Group which is

          16       our, like, level 1 public order unit, where I spent four

          17       years.  At the TSG we provide, like, your football aid;

          18       your disorder; your CBRN response, chemical and

          19       biological response; we do your unarmed rapid entries.

          20       So we're like a level 1 public order unit.  During that

          21       time as well I became a firearms officer as well because

          22       we do counter terrorism drills.

          23   Q.  What did you have to do to become a firearms officer?

          24   A.  Initially you have to apply and then you have to do

          25       a medical and a physical and then, at that time, I had


                                             3
 

 

 


           1       to do a two-week initial firearms course, which was just

           2       for the Glock self-loading pistol.  So at that time, in

           3       2003, it was a two week course just to become a basic

           4       firearms officer with a Glock self-loading pistol only.

           5   Q.  How did your career develop after that?

           6   A.  In 2005 I applied for SO19, or CO19 -- or, as we're

           7       calling now, SCO19, apologies.

           8   Q.  We are calling it CO19.

           9   A.  Okay, good.  Again, I had to do an assessment and then,

          10       following that assessment, I done a seven-week armed

          11       response vehicle course.  The first two weeks of that is

          12       your firearms training, so you are taught again how to

          13       use a Glock self-loading pistol, a MP5 carbine, Taser,

          14       baton guns and other weaponry, and then you do a further

          15       three weeks of that, where you do your tactics, how you

          16       deal with armed criminals in vehicles, on foot or in

          17       premises, and then the second -- the sixth and seventh

          18       week is where -- how we execute warrants or how we

          19       search buildings for armed criminals.

          20           So, all in all, the armed response vehicle course is

          21       a seven-week course and there's about a 50 per cent pass

          22       rate on it.

          23   Q.  We've seen a video of what I keep calling the "hard

          24       stop" being trained.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                             4
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Did you have to be trained for that?

           2   A.  Yes, we were.  I appreciate you call it a "hard stop".

           3       I think we're probably keep calling it -- if you're

           4       happy with that.  We call it something different now.

           5   Q.  You call it a non-compliance stop, I think.

           6   A.  Yes, that's right, sir.  But, yes, we are trained in

           7       that, but on that course we do everything in uniform

           8       because we're a uniformed asset at that time.  So I've

           9       done additional training.

          10   Q.  In the course of that training, that initial full-blown

          11       firearms training, were you given exercises in when to

          12       shoot, when not to shoot?

          13   A.  Part of the training is shoot/don't shoot scenarios,

          14       either on a judgement range or when you're actually

          15       doing tactical training where, for example, in our

          16       training facility somebody might come at you with a gun

          17       where you might shoot or you might not shoot.  So we

          18       call it a shoot/no shoot scenario.  So, yes, we would do

          19       a lot of that regarding process.

          20   Q.  Initially on that, you said the shoot/no shoot could be

          21       done in one of two places?

          22   A.  Yes, in both ways you do them on -- I suppose if you

          23       imagine you walk into a cinema complex and you have

          24       a massive screen and you have a video playing, it's

          25       probably -- I don't know how to describe it really --


                                             5
 

 

 


           1       yes, a scenario player in front of you and then you

           2       would have to deal with that scenario, whether to shoot

           3       or not to shoot.

           4   Q.  What sort of things show up on the screen?

           5   A.  You would have a scenario, for example, where you would

           6       be walking through a school and you would hear gunshots

           7       and you would see bodies on the floor and then you would

           8       go into a room where the gunman is and he may pose

           9       a threat to you and you would have to decide whether to

          10       shoot him or not to shoot him, depending on how the

          11       instructor wanted the scenario to play out.

          12   Q.  Was that just training or was that part of the process

          13       of weeding people out?

          14   A.  It's probably weeding people out because again one of

          15       the most important things is your threat assessment, so

          16       again you need to justify every shot that you fire and

          17       you need to have -- you need to be tactically sound and

          18       you need to make good judgment calls in split second

          19       scenarios.

          20   Q.  Okay.  So we are at the point where you have done this

          21       training.

          22   A.  Indeed, sir.

          23   Q.  Did you then start carrying firearms on the street?

          24   A.  Yes, for four years then I was out on the uniform side

          25       of CO19's business, which is our armed response


                                             6
 

 

 


           1       vehicles.

           2   Q.  Right.  Then what happened?

           3   A.  After four years, I applied to sort of specialise

           4       further within our department.  I applied to become

           5       a Tactical Support Team Officer, which is further

           6       training.

           7   Q.  That's what you were in 2011?

           8   A.  It is indeed, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  What was the further training?

          10   A.  You do a two-day assessment on the current skills that

          11       you have and then if you pass that assessment you go

          12       onto a further seven-week course.  That course is more

          13       to deal with covert carriage of firearms.  Whereas on

          14       the armed response vehicles you're in uniform, most of

          15       our work on the Tactical Support Team side of business

          16       is covert, where we wear plain clothes.

          17           So, for example, we would be taught how to carry out

          18       covert reconnaissance on premises, we would plan and

          19       brief and execute warrants but we would also be trained

          20       in Mobile Armed Support to Surveillance.

          21   Q.  That shoot/no shoot part of the training you talked

          22       about at the earlier stage, was that any part of any

          23       refresher courses or any updates of training?

          24   A.  We go training for one week every six weeks and you are

          25       continually re-assessed on it, you are continually


                                             7
 

 

 


           1       trained on it.  It's not -- just because you go to

           2       a course you continually are assessed on it because --

           3       I'm a firearms instructor also, so if somebody wasn't up

           4       to the mark, even though they may have passed all the

           5       courses, if you do something wrong in a training

           6       exercise, we'll be having words, it may be you would

           7       lose your authority to carry a firearm.  So you are

           8       continually assessed.

           9   Q.  Right.  Just in terms of the training and the continued

          10       assessment, was any part of that to do with shoot/don't

          11       shoot in a hard stop?

          12   A.  Yes, it would be, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  I think you are also a medic; is that right?

          14   A.  I am indeed, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  Tell us about the training for that.

          16   A.  Again, within our department we have the firearms medics

          17       and that's a two-week course.  The first of that course

          18       if where you do an outside qualification, which is first

          19       aid at work, which is like a health and safety, where

          20       you deal with breathing, bleeding, burns, and so on and

          21       so forth.

          22           Then the second week of the course is what we call

          23       "environmental training".  It's where we get -- in the

          24       nicest possible term, we get a make-up artist to come in

          25       and she'll actually get one of our stooges or one of our


                                             8
 

 

 


           1       instructors and she'll actually put make-up to signify

           2       wounds.  So we will play out firearms scenarios and

           3       then, for example, gunshot wounds and then we would have

           4       to deal with that wound whilst being assessed by medical

           5       professionals, paramedics, as well as we had

           6       a consultant from the air ambulance who turned up as

           7       well.  So again, that's an assessment process as well.

           8   Q.  Okay.  Let's move to 3 August 2011.  We know there was

           9       a briefing at about 6 o'clock that day to do with TMD,

          10       what might happen over the course of the next four

          11       working days and what you might be facing.  We know

          12       that, in fact, the firearms team didn't leave

          13       Quicksilver that day.

          14   A.  No, we didn't, sir, no.

          15   Q.  Can you give us a snapshot, please, of your

          16       understanding, as of the 3rd, of what you might be

          17       dealing with over the course of the next four days, as

          18       you understood it?

          19   A.  Yes.  Again, we had a tactical briefing before then and

          20       then we had a main operation briefing at 6 o'clock.  The

          21       Tactical Firearms Commander and the briefing officer

          22       gave a briefing that we were to provide Mobile Armed

          23       Support to Surveillance.  So we, as a firearms team, are

          24       providing an armed arrest capability, such --

          25       sufficiency of evidence come about where we would carry


                                             9
 

 

 


           1       out an armed interception.

           2           Information we received was that this operation was

           3       targeting the Tottenham Man Dem Crew and we were looking

           4       to disrupt their activities and ideally arrest one of

           5       their subjects, in possession of a firearm once

           6       information came about.  Then we received further

           7       intelligence that Mark Duggan was one of those subjects,

           8       that may take possession of a firearm.

           9   Q.  Had you had any dealings with TMD before?

          10   A.  Yes, I had, yes.

          11   Q.  Tell us about that?

          12   A.  About 18 months previously, we were on Operation Dibri

          13       and again on a particular day a transaction took

          14       place --

          15   Q.  Do you mean a gun?

          16   A.  -- a gun transaction took place, where a female took

          17       possession of a Glock self-loading pistol and 150 rounds

          18       of ammunition.  So 150 rounds, if I can sort of make

          19       a comparison, if you look at what happened in Manchester

          20       where two WPCs were shot dead by David Cregan (sic), he

          21       fired 38 rounds in 32 seconds.  This female had five

          22       times the amount of ammunition on her that day.

          23           So the surveillance team took her away and we

          24       carried out a hard stop, we recovered a firearm and the

          25       ammunition, she was arrested, the surveillance team


                                            10
 

 

 


           1       picked up the supplier around ten minutes later, and

           2       again we carried out a hard stop on the supplier and he

           3       was arrested with the money from the transaction and he

           4       was convicted also.

           5           Then a couple of months later we took out another

           6       gentleman who was involved with that transaction.  We

           7       carried out a hard stop on him.  I'm led to believe he

           8       was arrested, however he escaped under hospital guard

           9       and he was re-arrested a couple of days later.  So I do

          10       have experience of the TMD.

          11   Q.  Presumably you talked amongst your team about the TMD,

          12       did you?

          13   A.  Yes, we would have done, because some of the guys would

          14       not have been on the operation previously, so I would

          15       have said, from previous briefings, the TMD are --

          16       I don't want to heap praise on them because that's the

          17       wrong word, but they're very good at what they do, as in

          18       not getting caught, so we would have to be equally as

          19       good.

          20   Q.  Let me ask you -- again, this is still a snapshot of

          21       3 August and your understanding of what might happen

          22       over the next few days, based on what you knew.  What

          23       sort of guns, in your experience, were the people you

          24       were expecting to deal with likely to handle?

          25   A.  We didn't know -- from what I recall we didn't know


                                            11
 

 

 


           1       exactly what type of firearm they would have but it

           2       could be anything between a handgun, a revolver up to

           3       a Mac-10 submachine gun.  We were not told from what

           4       I can recall, what type of firearm they were going to

           5       take possession, but from experience, gangs usually

           6       carry handguns up to Mac-10 submachine guns, which are

           7       horrible.  There's no other way of saying that, to be

           8       honest.

           9   Q.  I do not want to go ahead but we are going to talk about

          10       a gun in a sock.  Let's stick with the snapshot of

          11       3 August.  Had you had any experience or did you have

          12       any knowledge of guns being used in socks?

          13   A.  Yes, I had, yes.  I have had a number of experiences.

          14       Around six months before August, we had a briefing from

          15       some colleagues of mine who were involved in another

          16       fatal police shooting in 2007, in Hanger Lane, in west

          17       London, where my colleagues went to intercept a male who

          18       was in possession of a firearm.  He actually opened fire

          19       on my colleagues and he had the gun in a sock, and the

          20       bullet literally just missed one of my friends by

          21       millimetres.  It actually left, like, gun residue on his

          22       face because it went so close to him.  There was

          23       an exchange of gunfire and that guy was unfortunately

          24       killed by police and he had possession of a handgun that

          25       was in a sock.


                                            12
 

 

 


           1           A couple of months previously, again we carried out

           2       an armed interception in north London and again, a bit

           3       of a coincidence, it was on a minicab, and again the guy

           4       in that car had a gun, a revolver, wrapped up in a sock.

           5           So it seemed to be a bit of an MO, if I may say,

           6       that criminals or gangs carry firearms in socks because

           7       it doesn't leave any forensic residue.  Again, if you

           8       look at it, when a bullet flies out of a gun, if it is

           9       in a sock it will stay within the sock, so you are not

          10       leaving any evidence and it's far easier to conceal in

          11       a sock.  But, yes, it's still as deadly.

          12   Q.  On that "it'll stay in the sock, you are not leaving any

          13       evidence", are you talking about the cartridge case?

          14   A.  I am, yes, I do apologise, yes.

          15   Q.  In a self-loading pistol, ordinarily the cartridge

          16       casing will eject, will it?

          17   A.  It will indeed, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  Let's move to 4 August.  We know that your team came on

          19       duty at roughly 4 o'clock --

          20   A.  We did indeed, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  -- at Leman Street.  Did you receive any briefing at all

          22       then?

          23   A.  Yes.  V59, who's our team leader, he gave us another

          24       up-to-date briefing from the previous day but there's no

          25       change in the intelligence and he read it from the --


                                            13
 

 

 


           1       I think you may have seen it -- the FA1 form.

           2   Q.  We have.  You were posted, I think, to the Charlie car?

           3   A.  I was indeed.  I was posted on the Charlie car as

           4       operator.

           5   Q.  Which is the front seat passenger?

           6   A.  Front nearside, yes, sir.

           7   Q.  I want to talk about armament.  You had your Glock SLP,

           8       did you?

           9   A.  I did indeed, sir, yes.

          10   Q.  Your MP5?

          11   A.  Yes, I did.  Yes, sir.

          12   Q.  Are they personal to you, those two weapons?

          13   A.  Yes, they are, yes.

          14   Q.  You had a Taser as well, I think.

          15   A.  I did indeed, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  Now, we have a Glock and an MP5 and a Taser, all of

          17       which I'm assured have been made safe.  Can we have

          18       a look at those please, because I want to ask you for

          19       your help.  Can we start with the Glock?  (Handed)

          20   A.  Are you happy for me to stand up?

          21   Q.  Please stand up if you want, but bear in mind the

          22       distance from the microphone is going to increase.

          23   A.  Okay.

          24   Q.  That's a Glock 9mm self-loading pistol?

          25   A.  Yes, it's a Glock 17 self-loading pistol.


                                            14
 

 

 


           1   Q.  That one has a torch attached.

           2   A.  It does, indeed.  We call it "tac a luminaire".  Again,

           3       if we use it in dark conditions, yes, there's a tac

           4       a luminaire torch attached also (indicates).

           5   Q.  Because this is the first time we have had sight of

           6       a gun, and sorry to ask you to do this, but can you give

           7       us some basic explanation about how one of these works?

           8       Can you take the magazine out?

           9   A.  Yes (indicates).

          10   Q.  The bullets go in the magazine in the first place, yes?

          11   A.  Yes (indicates).

          12           That holds 17 9mm rounds.

          13   Q.  The first thing you do if you put bullets in a magazine

          14       then is to put the magazine in the gun; is that right?

          15   A.  Yes.  Can I demonstrate, if you're happy.  So again,

          16       guys, that would be full up with 17 rounds of

          17       ammunition.  You put in the magazine and then you would

          18       rack it (indicates) and now that weapon is what we would

          19       call in Condition 1, which means there's a bullet in the

          20       breach and all we need to do now is pull the trigger and

          21       that gun will go bang and a round will be fired.  So

          22       that weapon is ready to go.

          23   Q.  The Glock doesn't have an external safety catch, does

          24       it?

          25   A.  No, it doesn't.  It has three built-in safeties, it's


                                            15
 

 

 


           1       actually a very safe weapon.  Again, it has a trigger

           2       safety (indicates), it has a drop safety and it has

           3       a firing pin safety.  I do not want to go into too much

           4       detail but, basically, that gun will only go bang if you

           5       pull the trigger.  So, even if you were to drop it on

           6       the floor, even with it loaded, it would not go bang

           7       unless you pull the trigger, because you can just see

           8       a little device on the trigger, it needs the -- your

           9       finger to squeeze that for it to go off.

          10   Q.  Some pistols have an external safety catch, do they not?

          11   A.  Some do, yes.

          12   Q.  We'll look at the Bruni in a bit, I think that one does.

          13       But where you have a pistol with an external safety

          14       catch, in order to go from the position we were just in

          15       when you put the magazine in, first of all you have to

          16       rack the slide back, yes?

          17   A.  Yes, you would do, yes.

          18   Q.  Then, in order to fire it, you would have to flick the

          19       safety off?

          20   A.  You would do or you may have to cock it, depending on

          21       what weapon system it is.

          22   Q.  Thank you.  In terms of your use of a Glock, where would

          23       that live on your body?

          24   A.  That would be on my hip.  So, again, I would have

          25       a covert holster on and it would be like this


                                            16
 

 

 


           1       (indicates) and again it would be covered up, and this

           2       would be my secondary weapon, my primary being the MP5.

           3   Q.  Right.  I said that's a 9mm; that's the diameter of the

           4       cartridges?

           5   A.  It is indeed yes.

           6   Q.  In terms of the type of ammunition, is that any

           7       different to the 9mm that the -- the MP5 would fire?

           8   A.  No, it's the same ammunition.  Literally, I think

           9       a couple of months previously, we changed bullets, for

          10       a better word, and we went to 124-grain hollow point

          11       round, which is apparently a better bullet because it --

          12       basically how it impacts on the person's body.  It

          13       spreads more, it has more stopping capability and it

          14       should reduce over-penetration.  So we literally changed

          15       bullets, probably a couple of months previously, but

          16       it's still -- both bullets work in both weapons, both

          17       the Glock and the MP5.

          18   Q.  How many rounds did you take out with you on the 4th?

          19   A.  I would have -- for the Glock I would carry -- there

          20       will be 17 in the weapon, I would carry another 17 for

          21       the Glock on my person and then I would carry a third

          22       magazine of 17 in what we call a grab bag, which would

          23       be in our boot, in case we came -- if you look at what

          24       happened in Kenya or Mumbai-type CT operation, we would

          25       carry more ammunition.


                                            17
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are right handed, are you?

           2   A.  I am indeed, yes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did it have the torch on then?

           4   A.  It did, yes.  It would do, sir, yes.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps we can exchange that for the Taser.

           6           I don't know whether the jury are interested in

           7       handling these but if so --

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think they might be, if they wish

           9       to, because it's quite important to feel the weight.  So

          10       if they were willing to do that, please pass it around.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  It is deactivated.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's been forensically tested so

          13       there's no difficulties about touching it if you wanted

          14       to.

          15             (The weapon was passed around the jury)

          16   MR UNDERWOOD:  Tasers: am I right in understanding that the

          17       purpose of a Taser is to put an electric shock into

          18       someone?

          19   A.  It is.  In fairly basic terms, that's what it is.  What

          20       we're looking to achieve with a Taser is -- technical

          21       term -- neuromuscular incapacitation or NMI, which

          22       basically means we -- 50,000 volts will go through the

          23       person which go through their skeleton mass, which will

          24       hopefully achieve neuromuscular incapacitation, which

          25       basically means their muscles are -- unable to control


                                            18
 

 

 


           1       their muscles or their motor functions.  So, for

           2       example, if they had a knife they would not be able to

           3       stab you and hopefully drop it.  However, like

           4       everything, it does have its limitations.

           5   Q.  There are two ways of using it, I think: one in the

           6       state it's in now, and one with a black box in it?

           7   A.  Yes, this isn't working.  There are two ways to use this

           8       Taser: one of them is in a drive stun mode, where the

           9       cartridge is either on or off and if you are up close

          10       and personal -- if, for example, I was being attacked

          11       I would drive stun them, where I drive the weapon into

          12       their chest or any part of their body, and I would

          13       administer a shock which -- the cycle lasts for five

          14       seconds.

          15   Q.  How does it work with that black cartridge attached?

          16   A.  Again, this is a cartridge, this is how we would carry

          17       it (indicates) and, again, this has a range of 21 feet

          18       maximum, and the optimum range is between 7 and 15.

          19       What happens here is when you fire it, a blast doors

          20       come off and two wires are ejected and come out on two

          21       darts and they go out at a 80-degree angle and what we

          22       are looking to achieve is for those darts to hit the

          23       person to get a good spread on the person, if that makes

          24       sense, because the bigger the spread, the bigger the

          25       shock that person is going to get.


                                            19
 

 

 


           1           So, again, that would deploy with 50,000 volts.  So

           2       again, I don't know if you can see the dart there

           3       (indicates).  That's the dart that comes out.  Again,

           4       with every weapon, weapon system, it has its limitations

           5       that will not penetrate clothing more than two

           6       millimetres -- not two millimetres, two inches, I do

           7       apologise.  It's not 100 per cent effective.  Again, it

           8       has its limitations because it can only be effective

           9       within a maximum of 21 feet.  Again, we could miss and

          10       it's like a single shot weapon: once you fire it, you

          11       have to reload it, if that makes sense.

          12   Q.  Thanks.  Again, if the jury want to see that no doubt it

          13       can be passed around.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Does it have a battery or something?

          15   A.  No, sir, nothing will happen -- no shock.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I don't mean that.  It's the

          17       weight.  I presume that when you have a battery on it,

          18       it's much heavier.

          19   A.  Yes, it's around the same weight.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's about that weight, is it?

          21   A.  It's much lighter than the weapon that has been handed

          22       around.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think the jury might like to feel

          24       the weight.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  As that's going towards the jury, can you


                                            20
 

 

 


           1       just tell us how you carried that on 4 August?

           2   A.  I carried it -- I had it on -- I was wearing combat

           3       trousers and I had it in my left pocket, and again

           4       that's -- it has to be on the opposite side to your

           5       firearm, that's part of our SOP.

           6   Q.  That would have been on your left-hand side?

           7   A.  Left, indeed, sir, yes.

           8             (The weapon was passed around the jury)

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let's move on to the MP5, please.  Can we

          10       have a look at that?  Again, I emphasise this has been

          11       deactivated.  It's a great big black thing.

          12   A.  It is, yes, one way of putting it.

          13   Q.  What are we looking at here, in terms of parts it?

          14   A.  Again guys, this is a MP5 carbine.  A carbine is

          15       basically smaller than a rifle but bigger than

          16       a handgun, okay?

          17           This is our primary weapon.  It's very accurate and

          18       it's very reliable and it's used probably throughout

          19       special forces units around the world and other police

          20       units.  It has a stock which you would put on your

          21       shoulder (indicates), which is collapsible.  It has

          22       a selector lever (indicates) here.  The white just means

          23       it's on safe and then, when you click it to fire, it's

          24       on single fire mode, so basically every time you pull

          25       the trigger, one round is discharged.  So it's not


                                            21
 

 

 


           1       a fully automatic weapon, which I don't know if you've

           2       seen on TV, where if you hold a trigger and lots of

           3       bullets fly.  So on this particular model you fire one

           4       round for every time you pull the trigger.

           5   Q.  It is self-loading, isn't it?

           6   A.  It is.

           7   Q.  So all you have to do is press the trigger to get

           8       another one?

           9   A.  Indeed, yes.  It has a magazine.  This magazine will

          10       hold 26 rounds and, again, I would carry another 14 on

          11       my person and I would carry another 66 in a grab bag.

          12       Again, it was a CT-style operation.  So 106 rounds we

          13       would carry for this weapon.

          14           The sight system: it has is a rear sight and a fore

          15       sight and, again, how you would get what we would call

          16       a sight picture is you bring it up to your shoulder and

          17       you look through the sight (indicates).  Again, you

          18       would keep open your master eye.

          19           On my particular weapon, I also had an EO tech

          20       sight.  An EO tech sight is -- let me just turn that

          21       on -- a glass mounted sight system, it has a red --

          22       I don't know if you can see it, guys.

          23   Q.  We'll hand it round in a minute.

          24   A.  It has a red dot within that glass viewing screen and

          25       where that red dot is is where you are aiming at, but


                                            22
 

 

 


           1       there's no laser beam or anything like that.  It's

           2       literally you will just see that.  The benefit of this

           3       sight is you can use with both eyes open, whereas when

           4       you usually shoot, you have to keep your weak eye closed

           5       and your master eye open.  However, with this weapon

           6       system or this sighting system, you use it with both

           7       eyes open.

           8   Q.  Can I just have it for a moment?

           9   A.  Of course you can, sir.  (Handed)

          10   Q.  Because the cameras can't see you for the people

          11       upstairs.  So your left arm goes, assuming you're

          12       right-handed, on the front grip, yes?

          13   A.  It does, yes.

          14   Q.  Then back and that (indicates).  How would you normally

          15       carry it?

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Point it over here so the camera

          17       upstairs can see it easier.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  When you are approaching a subject who may be

          19       armed, would you be looking like this (indicates)?

          20   A.  I would have it on a -- what we call a north aim ready

          21       position, so it's actually not in the aim but it's like

          22       slightly lower, which means I can get, like, vision of

          23       everything that's going on.

          24   Q.  If you bring it up and you look through the glass sight

          25       you've got both eyes open, have you?


                                            23
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.  Again, if you see where the red dot is, that's

           2       where the round would go.

           3   Q.  The other sights, are these called iron sights?

           4   A.  They are indeed sir.

           5   Q.  Would you ever use those if you have the EO sights on?

           6   A.  Again, if I had a failure on the EO tech, because it's

           7       battery operated, I would go back to the iron sights.

           8   Q.  I am not wanting to move forward to the events of

           9       Ferry Lane yet but, in principle, if you were carrying

          10       one of these in a hard stop or whatever the terminology

          11       is, as you get out of your car with this, how would it

          12       be?

          13   A.  It would be in off-aim ready position, select lever to

          14       fire.

          15   Q.  With a sling round your --

          16   A.  Yes, a sling would be round me, yes.

          17   Q.  -- over your shoulders, and with the selector on safe or

          18       fire?

          19   A.  If I was in the off-aim ready position, I'm actively

          20       using that weapon, so it would be on fire.  But my

          21       finger would be outside the trigger guard.

          22   Q.  Perhaps we can hand this around.  (Handed)

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you do not want to handle it,

          24       members of the jury, do not.  It is quite heavy, I'm

          25       sure the officer who has it now will be next to you if


                                            24
 

 

 


           1       you want any --

           2             (The weapon was passed around the jury)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's quite important, I think, for

           4       the jury to feel the weight of it and if they want to

           5       look through the sights, I'm quite happy if they point

           6       it at me, just to get an idea of what you see through

           7       the sight.

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thanks, officer.  Let's move on to the events

           9       of the 4th then: so you're kitted up, wearing body

          10       armour.

          11   A.  Initially I wasn't wearing body armour until we got to

          12       Quicksilver.

          13   Q.  So you have got your armaments with you, you are in the

          14       Charlie car, you are on your way to Quicksilver; what

          15       happens on the way to Quicksilver?

          16   A.  On the way to Quicksilver our team leader, V59, he got

          17       an update that the subject of operation was going to

          18       Leyton to pick up a firearm, and that was at about 5.15,

          19       I believe.

          20   Q.  Did you know it was Mark Duggan at that stage?

          21   A.  I don't believe so.

          22   Q.  We've heard that everybody went to Quicksilver at full

          23       speed then, in your team.

          24   A.  Yes, we did, yes.

          25   Q.  What happened at Quicksilver?


                                            25
 

 

 


           1   A.  At Quicksilver we got kitted up, so again I put body

           2       armour on, put covert communication devices on and get

           3       everything in the car ready to go.  I would have gloves

           4       near me, I wear what's called a raid jacket, which is

           5       a blue, sort of, civilian-like jacket, but it has flaps,

           6       hidden flaps, and they would be hidden, so I would have

           7       that on me.  I would have a medic leg bag on the floor

           8       by me and I would have my MP5 in the footwell of the

           9       car.  So we are getting in the state of readiness to

          10       deploy.

          11   Q.  I want another snapshot of your state of mind at this

          12       stage.  How often had you been in that situation, where

          13       you had just got kitted up, you had just got

          14       intelligence that you were going off to do a stop with

          15       somebody who may be armed?

          16   A.  Probably at that time, I would -- I had probably been

          17       involved in 50 Mobile Armed to Support operations where

          18       we've actually carried out interceptions, so probably in

          19       excess of 50, I would probably say.

          20   Q.  How had they gone?

          21   A.  Sorry, sir?

          22   Q.  How had they gone?

          23   A.  We never lost anyone, sir, that's the main thing, and we

          24       recovered numerous firearms during that time.

          25   Q.  Any shots ever been fired?


                                            26
 

 

 


           1   A.  No.

           2   Q.  So would you describe yourself as nervous at all at that

           3       stage?

           4   A.  You always have an apprehension because, you know, we

           5       are not naive to think -- you're going up against

           6       criminals who have access to firearms.  Obviously, we're

           7       trained to use firearms but there's definitely a bit of

           8       apprehension, bit of nervousness because you want to

           9       perform at the best of your ability.

          10           Again, I do not want to give respect to gangs and

          11       please don't think I am, but I actually had a healthy

          12       respect for this gang because they were very good at

          13       what they do.  So, again, we needed to be at the top of

          14       our game to deal with these criminals.

          15   Q.  Let me disentangle that a bit.  You have told us about

          16       one instance where another officer had been fired at and

          17       nearly hit.

          18   A.  Indeed, sir.

          19   Q.  Was that the same gang?

          20   A.  No, it wasn't, sir, no.

          21   Q.  In terms of TMD, had you any knowledge or experience of

          22       them ever threatening or shooting at an officer?

          23   A.  I received briefings the previous year to do with TMD

          24       and during that previous operation where I described, we

          25       received daily briefings that the TMD had been involved


                                            27
 

 

 


           1       in numerous fatal and non-fatal shootings, kidnappings,

           2       the supply of class A drugs within London, and they had

           3       been involved in stops where they've actually made

           4       determined attempts to escape, discarded firearms, they

           5       had been very surveillance-aware, and so on.

           6   Q.  Would this be fair: the knowledge you had from those

           7       briefings were that this committed gang -- and I do not

           8       say one way or the other whether Mr Duggan was a member

           9       of the gang, we appreciate what the intelligence says.

          10   A.  Indeed, sir.

          11   Q.  So your assumption was that the intelligence was

          12       accurate, I take it?

          13   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  On the basis of that intelligence, your expectation

          15       would be then that these people would make determined

          16       efforts to escape --

          17   A.  I think there would be a strong possibility, yes.

          18   Q.  -- and to distance themselves from firearms?

          19   A.  Not necessarily distance themselves, maybe to

          20       actually -- obviously I believe they would attempt,

          21       maybe, escape but escape -- they may use firearms in

          22       an attempt to escape as well.

          23   Q.  You have no experience or briefing of that, had you --

          24       or had you?

          25   A.  Not at that time, from what I recall.


                                            28
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Had you any briefing or experience of TMD members

           2       threatening an officer with a firearm?

           3   A.  I don't remember any intelligence at that time, sir, no.

           4   Q.  Before you left Quicksilver on 4 August, did you get any

           5       further briefings or warnings?

           6   A.  Yes, V59 gave us an update briefing -- can I just refer

           7       to my statement, if I may, sir?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What, concerning your briefing?  You

           9       have your statements there?

          10   A.  I do.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  As long as you let us know which one

          12       you are referring to, because there were a number of

          13       statements made on different days.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  The first large statement was 7 August.

          15   A.  It was indeed, sir, yes.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that the one you're looking at

          17       now?

          18   A.  It is indeed, sir, yes.  If you just bear with me.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Of course, yes, take your time.

          20   A.  (Pause)

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  In the hard copy version it's page 4 on our

          22       page 72.

          23   A.  I've got my own handwritten statement.

          24   Q.  Have you found the part you want?

          25   A.  I have indeed, sir.


                                            29
 

 

 


           1   Q.  How does the paragraph start?

           2   A.  "At Quicksilver ..."

           3   Q.  If you bear with us for a moment, that is our page 72.

           4       We'll have it up on the screen.  Please, do go on.

           5   A.  Lovely, thank you.

           6   Q.  If you can remember, I would prefer you to use your

           7       memory as far as you can, but if you want to back to

           8       a statement that was made nearer the time to refresh

           9       your memory, please feel free, whichever is most

          10       effective.

          11   A.  Yes, thank you:

          12           "At Quicksilver V59 gave the team an update."

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Is that screen not working?

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  That one is out, for some reason.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll ask the technical people

          16       below -- they can hear me, I know -- to make sure the

          17       screen is working.

          18           Can you see that screen all right, members of the

          19       jury.  That's not so good, is it?  It's a bit further

          20       away.

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  No.  All right, we'll pan around.  Please

          22       read it for us?

          23   A.  "At Quicksilver V59 gave the team an update.  It was

          24       believed that a male, Mark Duggan, was going to take

          25       possession of a firearm.  I was informed that an unarmed


                                            30
 

 

 


           1       surveillance team were monitoring him.  At Quicksilver,

           2       due to the fast moving developments and intelligence

           3       picture I received no further main briefing."

           4           Then:

           5           "At 17.45 V59 asked us if we were aware of our

           6       firearms warnings and we said we were."

           7   Q.  Tell us about firearms warnings?

           8   A.  Firearms warnings are given to firearms officers at main

           9       briefings.  They are there to give you a strict reminder

          10       of when firearms can be discharged, to remind you of

          11       your powers to use force under section 3 of the Criminal

          12       Law Act, Common Law, section 117 of PACE and article 2

          13       of ECHR, and also tell you that you are accountable for

          14       every round of fire and ask you if you are fit for duty.

          15   Q.  Let's move on then.  You went off in convey fashion,

          16       I think?

          17   A.  Yes, we did, yes, in mass formation.

          18   Q.  Were you aware of more intelligence coming in as you

          19       travelled out?

          20   A.  If you could just bear with me.

          21   Q.  Please.

          22   A.  As we left the patrol base at 17.55 we were on state

          23       green, which I believe you've been told about the

          24       traffic light system.

          25   Q.  We have.


                                            31
 

 

 


           1   A.  Then at approximately 1800 hours, V59, who's our team

           2       leader, he put over our radio "State amber, state

           3       amber", which means that the Tactical Firearms Commander

           4       has authorised an armed interception to take place.

           5   Q.  So did that convey to you that the subject did have

           6       a gun?

           7   A.  It more or less -- we received further intel as we moved

           8       along but once a Tactical Firearms Commander calls state

           9       amber, my mindset is going through -- because we work

          10       with Operation Trident so often, I've actually faith in

          11       their sort of intelligence gathering, they are not going

          12       to call state amber on a wing and a prayer or hidden

          13       hope, I suppose, because this is such a prolonged

          14       investigation.  So again by them calling state amber

          15       I would suspect there's very strong intelligence to

          16       suggest that the subject of the operation will be in

          17       possession of a firearm.

          18   Q.  I interrupted you but I think you said that some further

          19       intelligence then came in to confirm that?

          20   A.  It did indeed, sir, yes.  As we went through state

          21       amber, if you just bear with me.  (Pause)

          22           Again, I don't know -- do you want the page or --

          23   Q.  I think we've got it.  It's our page 73.

          24   A.  Okay.  I said:

          25           "A few minutes later I heard a further update from


                                            32
 

 

 


           1       V59 over my radio confirming that the subject was in the

           2       rear of the minicab and confirmed that he was in

           3       possession of a firearm."

           4   Q.  Did you do anything else to make yourself ready for what

           5       was to come?

           6   A.  Again, I got -- I pulled down my police flap on the

           7       front of my jacket and I got my rear Hatton gunner, W70,

           8       to pull down the flaps on the back of my jacket, which

           9       shows "Metropolitan Police Specialist Firearms".

          10       I would have put my medic leg bag on, I would have put

          11       gloves on, I would have my blue baseball cap, police

          12       baseball cap, by my hand and I would actually put the

          13       weapon MP5 actually on me, but sort of discreet as

          14       possible.

          15   Q.  When you say on you, you mean on the sling?

          16   A.  On the sling sorry, sir, on the sling.

          17   Q.  Did you have any discussion that you can recall?

          18   A.  I spoke to my two colleagues and I said there's probably

          19       a high chance that the subject of this operation will

          20       probably attempt an escape, because of the previous

          21       briefings I had regarding Operation Dibri and TMD.

          22       Those two officers were not actually on that briefing,

          23       but because of the previous intelligence picture that

          24       I was given, I thought there's a high chance that

          25       an escape attempt would occur.


                                            33
 

 

 


           1   Q.  What was your thought process about the minicab driver?

           2   A.  Again, the minicab driver -- again, we've experience of

           3       dealing with minicab drivers in this kind of scenario.

           4       Again, it's a bit of a MO for gangs within London to use

           5       minicabs because it does not draw attention to them, if

           6       they're driving around in a minicab in the back.

           7           So, again, the majority of the time the minicab

           8       driver will be an innocent member of the public.

           9       However, there may be some occasions where they may be

          10       told, you know, here is £10, forget what you've seen and

          11       bits and pieces.  So, again, we didn't have any

          12       intelligence actually on the minicab driver but we would

          13       treat him as an unknown risk.

          14   Q.  Just on this, if what I call a "hard stop" is called

          15       a "non-compliance stop" in police terms, was there any

          16       reason to believe the minicab would be non-compliant?

          17   A.  We didn't have any intelligence, sir, no.

          18   Q.  Do you know whether any thought was put to some other

          19       form of stopping the minicab if the driver might have

          20       been innocent?

          21   A.  No.  Again, the threat is the person in the rear

          22       because, again, the taxi driver could be -- or in this

          23       particular case was -- a innocent member of the public.

          24       If we had done perhaps a different tactic, there may be

          25       a chance that the subject in the rear of the cab may


                                            34
 

 

 


           1       actually hold the driver hostage or hold him under

           2       duress.  So, again, by doing the tactic of

           3       a non-compliant hard stop, we're trying to prevent the

           4       subject from escaping, from doing any violence, but,

           5       again, the main thing is we are trying to maximum the

           6       safety of the public by isolating him from the public.

           7           So there's the subject, armed police and members of

           8       the public, so we're trying to isolate the subject from

           9       members of the public, so we're actually trying to

          10       maximise the safety of the minicab driver by doing

          11       a hard stop.

          12   Q.  Right.  Did there come a point where you were listening

          13       to commentary over the radio of the surveillance team

          14       following the minicab?

          15   A.  Yes, we did, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  How was that described, that minicab?

          17   A.  The minicab to me was an old style gold people carrier,

          18       the registration number was R343 KPE.

          19   Q.  Let's have a look at this since we're on your statement,

          20       at page 75, the top paragraph.  You say:

          21           "I heard commentary that the target vehicle/minicab

          22       which was an old style gold people carrier [you give the

          23       registration] was in Blackhorse Road in front of a BMW

          24       X5.  I scanned the road in front of me, saw the X5 and

          25       in front of it I clearly identified the minicab.  It's


                                            35
 

 

 


           1       distinctive due to its 'gold' like colour and mirror in

           2       its back window."

           3           Officer, it was silver, wasn't it?

           4   A.  I don't know, sir.  I would probably describe it as

           5       gold, to be honest with you, I recall.

           6   Q.  Let's take this in stages.  First of all we know from

           7       ZZ37 that he described it as bronze; do you recall that?

           8   A.  No, sir, I don't.

           9   Q.  The commentary may well have had "bronze" in it; do you

          10       recall?

          11   A.  I don't recall, sir, no.

          12   Q.  "Gold" is used twice in the flip charts that V59 put

          13       together for the briefing on 7 August; do you recall

          14       that?

          15   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  Everybody seems to describe it either as bronze from

          17       that commentary or gold from the flip charts.  I'll be

          18       corrected if I'm wrong by saying it's everybody but at

          19       least a large number of the officers making notes and

          20       making their statements on 7 August pick up that colour

          21       scheme.

          22   A.  Okay, sir.

          23   Q.  Now, you're saying, are you, that you remember it as

          24       being gold?

          25   A.  That's how I would describe it, sir, yes.  It was


                                            36
 

 

 


           1       distinctive because of its gold colour and particularly

           2       the mirror that was on the back window of it.

           3   Q.  If I were to suggest to you the possibility that you've

           4       written down on 7 August the word "gold" simply because

           5       it was put on the flip charts, that would be wrong,

           6       would it?

           7   A.  That would be wrong, sir, yes.

           8   Q.  Let's move on.  We've got you now in convoy following

           9       the minicab, you've caught sight of it and there's a BMW

          10       X5 between it and police vehicles.  What happened then?

          11       Again, as best you can recall, please.

          12   A.  Yes.  We're in Ferry Lane, so we're undertaking traffic

          13       so we're trying to be covert as possible, because if we

          14       start overtaking vehicles on the wrong side of the road

          15       and bits and pieces, somebody who's surveillance-aware

          16       is going to clock us and they're going to be on their

          17       toes even quicker.  So again, we're trying to be as

          18       covert as possible but at the same time we're trying to

          19       make progress as naturally as possible through the

          20       traffic.  Again we're in plain clothes and in plain

          21       clothes cars.

          22           We got behind the X5 and then beyond the X5 was the

          23       minicab, and then the minicab -- not the minicab -- the

          24       X5, pulled -- turned left, I don't know the road name,

          25       but that basically left the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and


                                            37
 

 

 


           1       our control car directly behind the minicab.

           2   Q.  What happened then?

           3   A.  Once we got there, state red was called, I remember, and

           4       then W42, who's in the lead vehicle, he called "Strike,

           5       strike, strike".

           6   Q.  Did you see the stop go in?

           7   A.  Yes, I did, yes.  Again, we were reaching the brow of

           8       the bridge of Ferry Lane, so you've got a large grassed

           9       area round to the left, you've got a pillar and then

          10       you've got, like, a five/six foot fence line to the

          11       nearside and a footpath.  The minicab is going and then

          12       the Alpha car overtakes and then (indicates) the Bravo

          13       car overtakes and my car, the Charlie car, we stay at

          14       the back.

          15           The Alpha car -- basically, what we're trying to do

          16       is enforce that vehicle to stop, that minicab is going

          17       to stop whether it wants to or not because we need to

          18       stop that vehicle.  So, again, the Alpha car cuts in in

          19       front, at an angle (indicates), the Bravo car goes

          20       alongside and then the vehicle I'm in, the Charlie car,

          21       we go up the back of the minicab leaving around a couple

          22       of inch gap.

          23           So where we actually stop is directly behind the

          24       minicab, as close as possible, to prevent that minicab

          25       from ramming his way out or trying to escape by


                                            38
 

 

 


           1       vehicular access (indicates).

           2   Q.  Did that go to plan?

           3   A.  It did, yes indeed.  Initially, the minicab, I would

           4       say, didn't stop as quickly as we would have liked, it

           5       wasn't failing the stop or anything.  Again, normally we

           6       would not necessarily use two tones but I remember two

           7       tones being used or "whoop woo", for a better word,

           8       being used to bring the car to a halt.

           9   Q.  Was there any delay in any one of the cars getting into

          10       position?

          11   A.  No, not that I recall.

          12   Q.  Can we look at page CE263.  It will come up on your

          13       screen, I hope, even if not all the others.  Is this

          14       a plan you drew, do you recall?

          15   A.  Yes, I've signed that.  That was given to the IPCC at

          16       some stage.

          17   Q.  The Alpha car is not on here because it had been moved

          18       by the time the laser scan took place.

          19   A.  Indeed.

          20   Q.  The BMW directly behind the minicab is your car, isn't

          21       it?

          22   A.  It is indeed, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  As far as you're concerned, is that where it did indeed

          24       stop?

          25   A.  It did indeed, yes.  It wasn't moved.


                                            39
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Keeping that in front of us, we'll go back to your

           2       statement if we have to but keeping that up, tell us

           3       what happened next?

           4   A.  As the strike happened, (indicates) as we're slowing

           5       down, Mark Duggan is sat behind the rear nearside of the

           6       minicab, so he is sat behind the driver.  As the stop

           7       goes in, I'm looking towards and he then darts across

           8       the back seat from right to left -- I would describe at

           9       pace -- and that took, you know, my mindset at that time

          10       was he's looking to escape because of his actions.  So

          11       again, as we put the hit in, he's darting across the

          12       back seat of the minicab from right to left towards the

          13       door.

          14   Q.  While the vehicles were still moving or after?

          15   A.  I think it was -- just came to a halt or there or

          16       thereabouts.

          17   Q.  Then what happened?

          18   A.  At that time, I start to get out of my vehicle, at that

          19       time I would have put a blue baseball cap on and, as I'm

          20       in the process of opening my car door or there or

          21       thereabouts, I saw W42, who came from the Alpha car.  He

          22       would have been the front seat passenger, he's armed

          23       with a MP5 carbine, he has a police baseball cap on and

          24       he is shouting into the structure of the minicab where

          25       Mark Duggan still is, and he's shouting "Armed police".


                                            40
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Whereabouts -- looking at the plan we've got on screen,

           2       you're just getting out of your car, are you?

           3   A.  Yes, I'm in the process of probably opening the door and

           4       getting out.

           5   Q.  Still on the -- either in the car or on the road rather

           6       than the pavement?

           7   A.  Yes, I cannot be precise.  I would have been in the

           8       process of exiting that car, I believe.

           9   Q.  Where was W42?

          10   A.  I can't be precise.  He would have been on the pavement

          11       before -- obviously the sliding door, I cannot be

          12       precise.  He would have been on the footpath.

          13   Q.  By the side of the minicab, though?

          14   A.  Yes.  He would have been aiming towards the minicab or

          15       the structure of the minicab.

          16   Q.  So very close to where Mr Duggan would be coming out, if

          17       Mr Duggan came out?

          18   A.  Yes, I would probably say so, yes.  Again, I cannot give

          19       a distance but, yes, he would be very close.

          20   Q.  What did you see then?

          21   A.  As I start to get out as well, the minicab door opens

          22       and Mark Duggan jumped out.  The way I describe this is

          23       he's jumped out at pace, you know, he has a spring in

          24       his step, and that again convinced me that he was

          25       looking to escape.


                                            41
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Let's just stop there, please.  From the angle you would

           2       have been at, if you were either by your car door or on

           3       the pavement or the kerb there, could you see the door

           4       itself slide or are you assuming that the door slid

           5       open?

           6   A.  You can sort of see, because of the sliding -- the way

           7       the door slides, you can see it's sort of going

           8       parallel, if that makes sense.  So if that's the door

           9       (indicates), you can sort of see sliding back, if that

          10       makes sense.

          11   Q.  So you were sufficiently on the pavement were you to be

          12       able to see the minicab side?

          13   A.  I believe so, yes.  I definitely seen the door slide

          14       open.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You saw the door sliding open?

          16   A.  Yes.  Along the rails on the side of the car.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The side of the minicab, yes.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  What did you see of Mr Duggan then?  You saw

          19       him coming out at a pace?

          20   A.  Yes, he's jumped out at pace and initially he's facing

          21       towards W42, and then at that time I'm getting out of my

          22       vehicle and I'm -- I take a couple of steps towards and

          23       I've got my MP5 in the off-aim ready position.

          24   Q.  There's a box marked "A" there, what does that

          25       represent?


                                            42
 

 

 


           1   A.  That represents the area roughly where I would have been

           2       standing.

           3   Q.  So, again, let's take a snapshot: W42, before the door

           4       slides, is close by that door, is he?

           5   A.  He would be -- can I point?

           6   Q.  Please.

           7   A.  Again, I cannot be precise, but he would have been

           8       (indicates) somewhere along there, I believe.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Perhaps you can say where he's

          10       pointing, I can't see.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  Somewhere around the front quarter of the

          12       minicab, on the pavement.

          13   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are you pointing that he's gone

          15       forward from the door that he got out of?

          16   A.  No, he would not be past the sliding door, but I think

          17       he was somewhere on the pavement, sort of near, maybe,

          18       the engine block of the minicab.  Again, I cannot be

          19       precise.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The engine being at the front of the

          21       minicab, so he's gone past where the word "mini" is,

          22       then gone forward to the front of the minicab firstly?

          23   A.  Yes, I think he's towards the front, so the engine block

          24       of the minicab, I believe, sort of within that rough

          25       area.  But again, sir, I cannot be precise exactly where


                                            43
 

 

 


           1       he was.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I understand.

           3   MR UNDERWOOD:  You are somewhere around the box marked "A"

           4       on that plan?

           5   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  Mr Duggan is coming out with a spring in his step.

           7       We've all got experience of that minicab or replica of

           8       the minicab and how easy or difficult it is to get out.

           9       The experience, I think, is that you pretty much have to

          10       contort yourself to get out.

          11   A.  Okay.

          12   Q.  What was his stance?

          13   A.  Again, he turned to face W42, I can't really say what

          14       stance, he was sort of -- I think his knees were maybe

          15       slightly bent so -- but I cannot really give you any

          16       more than that because his back was towards me at that

          17       time.

          18   Q.  Then what happened?

          19   A.  At that time, as I'm in an off-aim ready position,

          20       I've -- W42 has shouted "Armed police" -- "Stand still,

          21       stand still" and at the same time I've shouted "Armed

          22       police".

          23   Q.  What did Mr Duggan do?

          24   A.  At that time he turned to face me.  I don't know if he

          25       turned left or to his right but Mr Duggan has done like


                                            44
 

 

 


           1       a pivot movement and he's turned to face me.  So at that

           2       time, if I could describe it, I'm in an off-aim

           3       position, I've got lovely peripheral vision over the top

           4       and I'm taking everything in.

           5   Q.  Over the top of what?

           6   A.  Over the sight.  The weapon is slightly down, so I'm

           7       looking across everything so I'm trying to take

           8       everything in.

           9   Q.  Had he actually parted from the minicab or did he have

          10       one foot on it or what?

          11   A.  No he was out of the minicab.

          12   Q.  How far out, do you think?

          13   A.  I don't know, sir, not very far.

          14   Q.  Okay.  Then what happened?

          15   A.  The only way I can describe it is like a freeze frame

          16       moment.  You know, it's like if you've got Sky Plus or

          17       a video recorder, it's where you start pausing things,

          18       and in my head the world had stopped because as he's

          19       turned to face me, where I had lovely peripheral vision

          20       my focus turned immediately to what was in his hand.

          21   Q.  How was he holding his hand?

          22   A.  Again, may I stand up?

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, please, yes.

          24   A.  As he's turned to face me, he has an object in his right

          25       hand (indicates), Mark Duggan is carrying a handgun in


                                            45
 

 

 


           1       his right hand.  I can see the handle of the weapon,

           2       I can make out the trigger guard, I can make out the

           3       barrel and it's side-on to his body and there's a black

           4       sock covering that weapon.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you just turn round with your

           6       hand in the position?

           7   A.  Like this (indicates).

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  What you are describing is right arm close in

           9       by the chest, elbow bent, right hand across your

          10       chest -- across your stomach, really.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Across your stomach, over your

          12       navel, isn't it?

          13   A.  It is.  Side-on to his stomach and the weapon is

          14       parallel to the floor.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  I don't know whether we have that gun in its

          16       sock now?

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll come back to that, I think.

          18   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps you could have your Glock back -- not

          19       your Glock, a Glock back.  (Handed)

          20   A.  (Indicates)

          21   Q.  So the gun was being held without the finger in the

          22       trigger guard?

          23   A.  I don't recall, I just remember he was holding it with

          24       his right hand.  Again, you can make out the shape

          25       outline of it, the handle of it, the barrel, you could


                                            46
 

 

 


           1       make out the trigger guard, not visually, but again if

           2       you image it going as a L-shape, the sock, there's like

           3       a little bit of give in it, so that's where the trigger

           4       guard would have been, and obviously the size of the

           5       object was similar size to my side arm.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  Again, can I have that please because I am on

           7       camera and you are not?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Please.  I'll ask Mr Underwood just

           9       to imitate that.  (Handed)

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Thanks.  You're describing this, I think; is

          11       that fair (indicates)?

          12   A.  Slightly lower down, sir.  The barrel is more parallel

          13       to the floor and the elbow is kind of more tucked in.

          14   Q.  Like that?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  (Indicates) So it's aiming left?

          17   A.  It is, yes.

          18   Q.  Despite the fact there's a sock on it, you think his

          19       hand has gripped the grip rather than -- not doing that

          20       (indicates)?

          21   A.  No, he was holding that weapon.

          22   Q.  But not like that, with his finger in the trigger?

          23   A.  I do not remember where his top finger is, his trigger

          24       finger was.

          25   Q.  Thanks.  (Handed)


                                            47
 

 

 


           1           Can you help us about what his stance was then?

           2   A.  If I recall, his knees were slightly bent (indicates).

           3       He was not standing up straight and proud but he wasn't

           4       fully bent down as well, if that makes sense.

           5   Q.  Okay, yes.  What about his relationship with you?  Was

           6       he square on to you or three-quarters on or sideways on

           7       or what?

           8   A.  Again, I cannot be precise because, you know, this is

           9       happening in seconds but he was facing me, he may have

          10       been slightly to the left of me, but, again, I can't be

          11       100 per cent precise.

          12   Q.  Broadly speaking, upright and, broadly speaking, square

          13       on to you; would that be fair?

          14   A.  Yes, sir.

          15   Q.  Moving?

          16   A.  Again, the only way I can describe this moment is the

          17       world has just stopped in my head, it's like a freeze

          18       frame moment and, again, the only thing I was focused on

          19       was the gun.

          20   Q.  Right.  What did you do?

          21   A.  Again, because he was carrying it like this (indicates),

          22       again I've assessed and at that time he's not posing

          23       a threat to me.  So, again, I'm hoping he's going to

          24       drop it or he's going to do something.  Again, this is

          25       happening in milliseconds but then the next thing he


                                            48
 

 

 


           1       does, he starts to move the gun away from his body

           2       (indicates).

           3   Q.  The way you are describing that is that all you're

           4       moving is your wrist; is that right?

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  So he was not flinging his arm out --

           7   A.  No.

           8   Q.  -- or flexing his elbow?

           9   A.  No, in this movement.  So he's moved the weapon, the

          10       barrel, he raised the weapon (indicates), moved it

          11       a couple of inches away from his body.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you turn round a little bit so

          13       I can see as well?

          14   A.  Sorry, sir.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  You used the word raised but it's not been

          16       raised up, it's being brought out.

          17   A.  I would use the word "raised" because it describes

          18       a movement in my head.  So to me he's raised it.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He's swinging it around, out from

          20       his body, but the hand still remains on his stomach.

          21   MR UNDERWOOD:  He's, at that stage, still square on to you?

          22   A.  Yes, still square on.

          23   Q.  What did you do then?

          24   A.  Again because -- the only way I can describe this,

          25       there's a line in the sand now or there's a tipping


                                            49
 

 

 


           1       point.  If Mr Duggan had left the gun like this I would

           2       have hoped he would have dropped it, but because he's

           3       moved it away from his body I now have an honest held

           4       belief he's going to shoot me, because by moving away

           5       from his body he can do this (indicates) or he can do

           6       this (indicates) in a fraction of a second, whereby

           7       I had an honest held belief that he was going to shoot

           8       me.

           9   Q.  What you have just demonstrated there is that either he

          10       could raise his arm up, so it is parallel to the ground,

          11       and aim the gun at you and shoot you or he can just

          12       swing --

          13   A.  He could swing it like this, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  -- the gun further round and shoot you with his elbow

          15       still crooked against his chest, yes?

          16   A.  Indeed, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  What then did happen?

          18   A.  Again -- because, again, the tipping point or the line

          19       in the sand -- because he's actually moved it away from

          20       his body, I have a honest held belief he's going to

          21       shoot me.  So I had my MP5 in an off-aim ready position

          22       and -- again this is happening in a split second.

          23           So again I brought my weapon up (indicates) and I've

          24       discharged one round and I'm aiming for the central body

          25       mass because I'm looking to shoot to stop, to achieve --


                                            50
 

 

 


           1       basically stop the threat.  So I've discharged one

           2       round.

           3   Q.  Did you see that impact on him?

           4   A.  I did, sir, yes.

           5   Q.  Then what happened?

           6   A.  Again, if I may describe, sir.  (Indicates) the gun is

           7       initially like this, the round has impacted Mr Duggan on

           8       his right chest and it's caused like a flinching

           9       movement.

          10   Q.  You have described there him flinching with his right

          11       shoulder away from you?

          12   A.  If that's -- yes (indicates).

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Again, it's very important the jury

          14       see firstly, but it's also quite important that I see as

          15       well.

          16   A.  So, sir, as I say, he's moved the gun barrel away from

          17       his body a couple of inches I've discharged one round,

          18       which has impacted on his chest, which has caused like

          19       a flinching movement, and then the gun has now moved and

          20       is now pointing towards my direction.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Flinching movement is the right

          22       shoulder going sharply back?

          23   A.  It is, sir, yes, from the impact of the round.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So whereabouts are you saying this

          25       round had impacted.


                                            51
 

 

 


           1   A.  On his right chest.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Again, can I have the gun back and I'll, with

           3       your guidance, do that so that it can be seen on the

           4       camera.  (Indicates) so starting from down here

           5       somewhere (indicates), you see --

           6   A.  Yes, sir.

           7   Q.  -- a round go in around there.

           8   A.  Right chest, yes.

           9   Q.  He flinches that way away (indicates)?

          10   A.  Yes, but the gun has come out.

          11   Q.  So he has moved the gun out towards you before you

          12       fired, the round hits him up there?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  He flinches away?

          15   A.  I wouldn't say he's flinched that much.

          16   Q.  He reacts away, right shoulder away from you and the gun

          17       is now trained more towards you.

          18   A.  It is indeed, sir, yes.

          19   Q.  (Handed)

          20           Thanks very much.  Then what happened?

          21   A.  Again, I've reassessed what's happening in front of me,

          22       so again -- this is happening, probably, in a second,

          23       everyone.  So the round has impacted on his chest, it's

          24       now -- the gun is now pointing towards me, so again I'm

          25       thinking he's going to shoot me.  So, again, because


                                            52
 

 

 


           1       I've got an honest held belief he's going to shoot me or

           2       one of my colleagues and I have reassessed the threat

           3       and I've discharged a second round from my MP5, which

           4       appeared to impact on his right arm -- or right bicep,

           5       shall I say, sorry.

           6   Q.  Okay.  Did you see how his jacket was being worn?

           7   A.  All I remember was his jacket was open.

           8   Q.  Would it be fair to say you were focused on the gun?

           9   A.  Again, the only way I can describe this is a freeze

          10       frame moment, is where you are just focused on what's

          11       going to cause you harm.  Whereas initially I had lovely

          12       vision, but once the gun is in Mark Duggan's hand, my

          13       focus is just glued on the gun and what that gun is

          14       going to do to me.

          15   Q.  How did it get over the railings?

          16   A.  I don't know, sir, I would love to be able to answer

          17       that question.

          18   Q.  Help us as best you can.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Before that question -- I was hoping

          20       the question might have been a bit more neutral: what

          21       happened to the gun?

          22   A.  Sir, the next time I look to reassess, the gun wasn't

          23       there.  So in the course of like a split second, one

          24       second the gun is there and the next second, when

          25       I looked and reassessed the gun is not there because


                                            53
 

 

 


           1       I think Mr Duggan would have been falling backwards at

           2       that time.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're focusing on him, you are

           4       looking at him all the time you are not looking away or

           5       blinking.

           6   A.  No.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Suddenly the gun disappears.

           8   A.  It did, sir, yes.  Again, sir, it's happened so quick.

           9       If you imagine, this is happening in a split second, one

          10       second it was there and the next second when I looked

          11       thankfully he wasn't pointing at me.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What was he doing?

          13   A.  I think he was -- I can't remember exactly but he was

          14       falling backwards.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Did he fall forwards first or did he fall

          16       backwards first?

          17   A.  Again, I cannot be precise because at that time I've

          18       given a big loud shout of "Shots fired, shots fired"

          19       because I wanted to let everyone know that I've actually

          20       engaged Mr Duggan and I just remember him falling

          21       backwards and officers converging on him.

          22   Q.  Is it your evidence, be clear about this, that he had

          23       the gun in his hand from the moment you saw him turn

          24       towards you?

          25   A.  Absolutely.


                                            54
 

 

 


           1   Q.  He had that gun in his hand while you fired both shots?

           2   A.  Absolutely.

           3   Q.  But it suddenly wasn't there?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Did you become aware that W42 had been shot?

           6   A.  Yes.  After I said "Shots fired, shots fired", because

           7       I'm a medic, my role then becomes to provide first aid,

           8       because we've got a casualty now, the threat is

           9       neutralised, in police terms but again -- in layman's

          10       terms, there's no gun threat there at the minute.  But

          11       now we have a casualty, so my role as a medic is now to

          12       provide first aid.  However, at that time, W42 goes "I'm

          13       hit, I'm hit".

          14   Q.  What did you do?

          15   A.  (Pause)

          16           It's something that I'll never forget to be honest

          17       because he's a mate of mine and I went over to him

          18       and --

          19   MR STERN:  Sorry to interrupt but --

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we might have a break now,

          21       generally.

          22   MR STERN:  Whether we have a break or not, if people feel

          23       they are not able to listen to this evidence -- this is

          24       evidence that is anticipated in statements and indeed

          25       heard before.  If people feel they cannot listen to it,


                                            55
 

 

 


           1       then it is an option that they can listen to it in

           2       another room.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern, I am not going to clear

           4       the court.

           5   MR STERN:  I am not asking that.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Those who are there are allowed to

           7       be there.  This is a highly important piece of evidence,

           8       clearly, and I think we all understand the nature of it.

           9   MR STERN:  Absolutely.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sorry that I was perhaps

          11       thinking of having a break at some good point and if

          12       I had only thought about it a few moments before we

          13       might have stopped that last little outburst, but in any

          14       event, I think probably I would like us just to press on

          15       with the evidence just for a few more questions so we

          16       just deal with this part of the account of V53 and then

          17       we'll have a short break.

          18           But, by you standing up, I think probably everyone

          19       has now calmed down enough for us to go on and then have

          20       the break.  I know that those at the back of court will

          21       understand that they must try to restrain any outbursts,

          22       please, whilst a witness is giving evidence.  It's only

          23       fair to the witness that should be done.

          24           Mr Underwood, can we just finish off that piece of

          25       evidence before we go on to the next stage of the


                                            56
 

 

 


           1       account?

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  You realise W42 had been shot.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  He was a friend of yours, yes; what did you do?

           5   A.  Again, I knew Mark Duggan never fired at us, that's --

           6       we knew that straight away.  He never fired at us, so

           7       obviously two rounds had been discharged, I fired both

           8       of them and I'm thinking -- I do not want to use

           9       industrial language, but I'm thinking "Oh, damn, one of

          10       my rounds has over-penetrated and hit one of my friends

          11       and colleagues".

          12   Q.  Who did you go to first?

          13   A.  I've gone to him.

          14   Q.  What did you do?

          15   A.  Again, the only way I can describe this is his knees

          16       started to go -- I sort of call it an "Elvis" because

          17       his knees started to buckle under him, his face was

          18       initially red, but you could see the white just go down

          19       his face.

          20           So I've grabbed him and I've put him down against

          21       the fence line, telling him to "Man up" and, you know,

          22       a bit of cop humour, to be honest with you, as I'm

          23       cutting his clothes off, because I'm looking for

          24       a bullet wound now.  So I'm saying his name, "You're

          25       going to be okay mate, don't worry, don't worry", as I'm


                                            57
 

 

 


           1       ripping his clothes off, getting his body armour off and

           2       I'm looking for basically a bullet wound in him.

           3   Q.  Did you satisfy himself he was not wounded?

           4   A.  Touch wood, the round was in his radio and there was no

           5       obvious penetration in him.

           6   Q.  Help us with the relative heights of things here.

           7       Compared with you, was W42 tall or shorter?

           8   A.  He would have been shorter.

           9   Q.  Very much shorter?

          10   A.  Probably six -- probably five or six inches, perhaps.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  How tall are you?

          12   A.  6'2".

          13   MR UNDERWOOD:  Whereabouts on his body did that round

          14       strike?

          15   A.  It would have been where he had his radio, which would

          16       have been his left side.

          17   Q.  You are indicating about halfway up his chest, on the

          18       left side.

          19   A.  Yes, on the left side, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  Around the rib cage on the left?

          21   A.  Indeed, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  Having satisfied yourself about that, did you go back to

          23       Mr Duggan?

          24   A.  I did indeed, yes.  Again, my role is a medic.  I've

          25       satisfied myself that W42 has no life threatening


                                            58
 

 

 


           1       injuries, so I've dealt with W42 for around two minutes.

           2       I've then gone back to Mark Duggan who's a casualty now

           3       and needs attention.

           4   Q.  What did you do?

           5   A.  At that time, two of my colleagues had his jacket and

           6       upper body -- upper clothing taken off -- so again, I've

           7       knelt down and I've done -- I don't know if you've heard

           8       the term "Dr's ABC" in first aid.  So D is for "danger";

           9       R for "responsive"; A for "airway"; B for "breathing"; C

          10       for circulation.  So we call this a primary survey.

          11           So I've done a primary survey and at that time

          12       Mr Duggan is breathing.  However, now I'm looking for

          13       bullet wounds.

          14           So again I've found one bullet wound in his right

          15       chest and I've also found a bullet wound in his right

          16       arm.  So, at that time, I've got black nasty tape,

          17       initially, to seal those wounds.  So once those wounds

          18       are sealed, I then do another survey.

          19           By that time, he then goes -- sorry, let me go back

          20       a bit.  Plasters, Dr's ABC -- I've assured myself

          21       there's no other bullet wounds, then I've asked

          22       colleagues "Can you get me an Asherman dressing?"

          23       because it's a sucking chest wound, so someone has

          24       handed me an Asherman chest wound (sic), that's been

          25       replaced on his right chest and another dressing was


                                            59
 

 

 


           1       then replaced on his right arm.

           2   Q.  Pausing there, was your impression about two minutes

           3       after the shooting that he was still alive; is that

           4       right?

           5   A.  He was breathing, there were signs of life, I would say.

           6   Q.  Voluntarily or was that as a result of the CPR?

           7   A.  At that time we had not started CPR because he was

           8       still -- I would class it responsive -- again,

           9       I appreciate there's family here.  It was maybe like

          10       a (makes sound) sound.

          11   Q.  Having conducted your survey and used the tape, what

          12       happened then?

          13   A.  Again once, I've used the black tape, I've reassessed

          14       and then we've redressed those wounds with an Asherman

          15       chest seal and another dressing for his arm.

          16   Q.  Did CPR start then?

          17   A.  No, not yet, sir.  At that time I'm looking for signs of

          18       life and then Mark Duggan goes unresponsive, so again as

          19       part of the "Dr ABC" we are looking for response now.

          20       So initially there was no alertness on voice.  I've then

          21       nipped his ears because we're looking for pain response

          22       and there's no pain response.  So that casualty is now

          23       unresponsive.

          24           So I've tilted his head back and now I'm trying to

          25       put down what we call an oropharyngeal airway tube down


                                            60
 

 

 


           1       his throat because I wanted to assist his airway -- can

           2       I call it an OP airway?

           3           So I've put an OP airway down his throat because

           4       I want to keep his airway open, but he's done a retching

           5       sound, (makes sound).  So again, part of our SOP is to

           6       remove that airway straightaway.  I then checked if he's

           7       breathing but he's unresponsive at that time and then

           8       I've started doing CPR and I've started doing the chest

           9       compressions.

          10   Q.  Did you carry on doing that until the ambulance, or

          11       rather the paramedic, arrived?

          12   A.  Yes, we did.  As I say, I was doing chest compressions,

          13       a colleague of mine was doing the blowing in the mouth,

          14       I believe W70 was there as well.  As we're doing chest

          15       compressions I was aware that we've started filming the

          16       scene.  As well as that, we then found another wound on

          17       his back, which we believed to be an exit wound so,

          18       again, we've moved Mr Duggan on his side and we've

          19       placed another Asherman dressing on his back and then we

          20       placed him back down.

          21           I continued doing chest compressions, at one time

          22       I thought there was a sign of life so I've actually --

          23       I haven't said "Stop", I've said "Hang on there

          24       a second".  I've listened for breaths, one of my

          25       colleagues has checked for a pulse and he said "We've


                                            61
 

 

 


           1       got a pulse".  So again, that was, like, great, this is

           2       working, you know, we're actually doing some good work

           3       here.  Then as we keep doing chest compressions --

           4       I think I worked on him for, I don't know, maybe ten

           5       minutes, until the first paramedic turns up.

           6   Q.  Did you then hand over to the paramedic?

           7   A.  Yes.  A female paramedic turned up and we do what's

           8       called a structured hand over because initially that

           9       casualty is my responsibility.  Once I hand over to the

          10       paramedic, that's her responsibility.  So I've given --

          11       you have probably heard of mnemonics all through the

          12       last couple of weeks, but the mnemonic is "Ash Ice": A

          13       is the age of the casualty, sex, the history, the

          14       injuries and the conscious state.

          15           So basically I've given a verbal handover that this

          16       male is between 25 and 30, I believe, he's been shot

          17       twice, he's been unresponsive, CPR has commenced,

          18       something to that effect.

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  Perhaps that's a convenient moment.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We'll have a break at that point.

          21   A.  Thank you, sir.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just stay there for a moment while

          23       I ask the cameras upstairs to be turned off then,

          24       members of the jury, if you would like to leave us for

          25       ten minutes.


                                            62
 

 

          16   (11.57 am)

          17                         (A short break)

          18   (12.22 pm)


                                            66
 

 

 


          13                  (In the presence of the jury)

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then if we can have the witness

          15       back.

          16           As you'll notice, those members of the jury in the

          17       back row, you have two smaller screens now to replace

          18       the larger one which we cannot revive for the moment so

          19       that's what we'll have to deal with for today.  Thank

          20       you.

          21           We have the witness coming back into court.

          22                (The witness returned into court)

          23                         V53 (continued)

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much.  We can have

          25       a the cameras turned back on.


                                            70
 

 

 


           1           V53 you are still under the affirmation that you

           2       took before and we'll take up your account where we left

           3       off.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  Officer, you handed the CPR over to the

           5       paramedic.  While you were doing CPR, were you aware

           6       that a firearm in a sock had been found?

           7   A.  Yes, I was.

           8   Q.  Did you see it?

           9   A.  No.

          10   Q.  I think you gave an account to an Inspector, Inspector

          11       Elliott, at the scene; is that right?

          12   A.  Indeed, sir, I gave one at 18.50.

          13   Q.  Can we have a look at that, CD1042, on screen; is that

          14       in your writing or his?

          15   A.  No, it's his writing and I've signed it.

          16   Q.  Can you read it?

          17   A.  Yes:

          18           "I got out of Charlie car.  Subject got out of the

          19       rear nearside of taxi holding gun shaped item in sock in

          20       his hand.  Began to raise it up in my direction.

          21       I fired several shots."

          22           That's signed by me, V53, 4/8/2011 at 18.50.

          23   Q.  So within 40 minutes, at the outside, of the shooting?

          24   A.  If the shooting occurred at 18.13, there or thereabouts,

          25       I think life was pronounced dead at 18.41, so nine


                                            71
 

 

 


           1       minutes after life was pronounced extinct.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This was at the scene you gave this

           3       statement?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   MR UNDERWOOD:  Why do you say "I fired several shots"?

           6   A.  Because at that time, obviously I've just had a gun

           7       pointed at me, so I was -- I wouldn't say -- I wanted to

           8       give an account at the scene to help the investigation

           9       because I wanted to be open and transparent straight

          10       away but, again, you know, your head is all over the

          11       place, you've just been involved in a traumatic incident

          12       so I didn't want to tie myself down to say "Yes, I've

          13       definitely fired two", when I check later in my mind

          14       a couple of hours later, I may have actually fired more.

          15           So the reason I said "I fired several shots" was

          16       I wasn't 100 per cent sure I fired two at that time.

          17   Q.  There was a degree of uncertainty in your mind about

          18       whether you fired more than two shots?

          19   A.  No, I would not say "uncertainty", I was still running

          20       through things, through my head -- again, this account

          21       is normally given by somebody other than the principal

          22       officer, as in the shooter.  It should be somebody other

          23       than me.  But I was quite comfortable in myself,

          24       I wanted to help the investigation at the earliest

          25       opportunity.  So by giving this very brief verbal


                                            72
 

 

 


           1       account, I knew later on that night I would be giving

           2       another account and again in 48 hours I would be giving

           3       a more detailed account, so I didn't want to say

           4       something that I wasn't 100 per cent clear in my mind at

           5       that time, if that makes sense.

           6   Q.  Almost, but let me chase this down: would it be fair to

           7       say you were not 100 per cent clear that you had only

           8       fired two shots?

           9   A.  I would probably say I was 99.999 per cent sure but

          10       I just wanted to have a bit of thinking time, I suppose.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So that means you are 100 per cent

          12       sure about everything else on that note?

          13   A.  Absolutely, sir.  Absolutely, yes.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.

          15   MR UNDERWOOD:  Then you went back, I think, to Leman Street

          16       Police Station?

          17   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  You did a count back of your ammunition, did you?

          19   A.  I did, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  By that point, presumably you had worked out that only

          21       two rounds were missing?

          22   A.  Yes.  Again, in the nicest possible way, you are

          23       constantly running things through your head and then

          24       I cannot remember exactly what time the count back was,

          25       I think from -- I think it may have been 11.30 that


                                            73
 

 

 


           1       night.  I think it was with some IPCC investigators and

           2       maybe some professional standards.  You do a count back,

           3       so you hand your weapons back to them but you take the

           4       magazine out and you count the bullets back.

           5           So on the long magazine, I should have had 26,

           6       I started with 26, and I counted back 24.  So at that

           7       time I was 100 per cent sure that only two rounds were

           8       discharged.

           9   Q.  There's no room for doubt about this is there because

          10       you sign out the number --

          11   A.  Absolutely, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  -- and you sign back in?

          13   A.  I do indeed sir, yes.

          14   Q.  Can we have a look at your notebook at CD0006.  I don't

          15       know whether you have a copy of it there?

          16   A.  I have a photocopy, I'm probably missing some of it,

          17       sir, but I've got my part of it.

          18   Q.  Very well.

          19   MR GLASSON:  We do have the original here?

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Glasson, thank you very much.

          21       It's much better to have the original if at all

          22       possible.

          23   A.  Fantastic, sir, thank you.  (Handed)

          24           Thank you, sir.

          25   MR UNDERWOOD:  We see there are numbers in the top


                                            74
 

 

 


           1       right-hand corner.  If we look at page 33 of the top

           2       numbering, it's our page 6.

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  We see that you start this on 4 August at 22.40; is that

           5       right?

           6   A.  I do indeed, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  Just going over the page, picking it up on the third

           8       line:

           9           "The vehicle was stopped and I deployed from my

          10       covert armed response vehicle.  The subject got out of

          11       the rear nearside of the target vehicle.  I shouted

          12       'Armed police'.  He turned in my direction.  My focus

          13       immediately then turned to an object which I honestly

          14       believed to be a firearm.  He began to raise it up and

          15       having a honest held belief that he was about to shoot

          16       me or my colleagues, I discharged a number of rounds

          17       hitting the subject."

          18           Is that what that says?

          19   A.  It does indeed, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  I just want to ask you a few questions on this.  In the

          21       middle of that page you say:

          22           "He turned in my direction.  My focus immediately

          23       turned to an object which I honestly believed to be

          24       a firearm."

          25           Were you sure it was a gun?


                                            75
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, I was, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Why do you say "honestly believed"; that looks like

           3       a qualification, doesn't it?

           4   A.  No, it's not, sir, no.  The way I mean honestly is --

           5       "honestly" means truthfully, so I want to really

           6       over-emphasise my honesty that it was definitely

           7       a firearm, so in order to emphasise my sincerity of the

           8       fact that I honestly believed it to be a firearm,

           9       I truthfully believed it to be a firearm and that's why

          10       I used that phrase.

          11   Q.  Were you worried about your sincerity being challenged?

          12   A.  Absolutely not, sir, no.  Again, sir, these are my notes

          13       from my recollection and that's why I used the phrase

          14       "honestly".

          15   Q.  All of this is accurate, is it?

          16   A.  Absolutely, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Then, further down, after:

          18           "He began to raise it up and having a honest held

          19       belief that he was about to shoot me or my

          20       colleagues ..."

          21           Which colleague could he have shot?

          22   A.  He could have shot W70 who was behind me.

          23   Q.  Did you know he was behind you?

          24   A.  I would have -- again, how we sit in the Charlie car

          25       would be -- I would be the operator front nearside, W70,


                                            76
 

 

 


           1       who's the Hatton gunner, he would be sat behind me, so

           2       I knew, because obviously this is a tried and tested

           3       tactic, he would have been coming behind me because his

           4       role -- he would have a shotgun and that shotgun is to

           5       disable tyres, not to use as a weapon, as such.  So

           6       I knew he would have been behind me somewhere.

           7   Q.  Right.  Then:

           8           "... I discharged a number of rounds ..."

           9           By this stage you had done the count back.

          10   A.  No, sir, I hadn't.

          11   Q.  Forgive me, you just told me you did?

          12   A.  No, I think the count back happened at 23.30 from what

          13       I can --

          14   Q.  Can we go back to the statement we looked at earlier on,

          15       CS78.  The paragraph but one at the bottom, the last

          16       four lines of that:

          17           "I was present and carried out a count back of

          18       rounds in my magazine.  In my MP5 long magazine there

          19       were 24 rounds.  I then made initial notes in

          20       an evidence and action book."

          21   A.  Again, when I done that statement I think I made

          22       an error because the timing -- I didn't have the time of

          23       the count back.  I'm led to believe the count back

          24       happened at 23.30, so I would've done the notes prior to

          25       me actually doing the initial account.  So I think


                                            77
 

 

 


           1       that's an error on my part because I didn't have --

           2       bearing in mind that statement you're talking about was

           3       done 12 months after the incident happened.

           4   Q.  The statement I'm talking about was made on

           5       7 August 2011, officer.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's your big full one.

           7   MR STERN:  I don't know if I can assist my learned friend in

           8       this regard.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I'm sure you can.

          10   MR STERN:  It he looks at CD05, he'll see, if it focuses in

          11       a little nearer, that the notes were completed at 22, it

          12       looks like, 50.

          13           If we then go to CD --

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  I am not challenging this, I'm challenging

          15       the records at the moment, in the statement that I'm

          16       taking the officer to, as opposed to what --

          17   MR STERN:  Let's look at the record, CD97.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Sorry, Mr Underwood -- sorry, CD97.

          19   MR STERN:  CD97.  The firearm -- I think the top bit is

          20       missing, but firearm and ammunition reconciliation form

          21       is timed at 11.30 so that's the point the officer is

          22       making, I think.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much for that.

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let's go back to the statement you made on

          25       7 August --


                                            78
 

 

 


           1   A.  Okay, sir.

           2   Q.  -- 2011, not a year after the incident --

           3   A.  Okay.

           4   Q.  -- which I have just read to you?

           5   A.  Sir, I think I probably got mixed up because the timings

           6       are mentioned in a statement I done 12 months later, so

           7       that was very confusing on my part.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Don't worry.  There's lots of

           9       statements.  Let's concentrate on this one, your main

          10       statement, on 7 August.

          11   A.  Sorry, sir.

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  The answer is, in short, is it, that when you

          13       made your statement on 7 August, you got this wrong?

          14   A.  Sorry, can I just read it, sorry, just to refresh my

          15       memory?

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

          17   A.  Sorry.  (Pause)

          18           I think in this statement, sir, I don't actually

          19       mention what time the count back actually happened.

          20   Q.  It's not a great big point, officer.

          21   A.  Sorry, maybe I'm --

          22   Q.  In the statement you say I carried out the count back

          23       I then made initial notes in my book.

          24   A.  I do apologise.  That's an error on my part then, sir.

          25   Q.  In making the statement on 7 August?


                                            79
 

 

 


           1   A.  I do apologise.

           2   Q.  Let's just get this clear then.  When you did make your

           3       notebook entry you still weren't 100 per cent sure you

           4       had only fired two shots?

           5   A.  Again, I wanted confirmation from the count back, if

           6       that makes sense.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You are 99.999 per cent sure at the

           8       scene and now we're a number of hours later --

           9   A.  No, I still --

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- you're still not 100 per cent.

          11   A.  No, I just want that little, I suppose, icing on the

          12       cake, for a better phrase, just to make sure that I did

          13       because obviously I'm aware of perceptional distortion,

          14       you may have -- forget things or -- again, the shooting

          15       is a big jigsaw, if I can explain it like that.

          16       Obviously there might be bits missing and you are just

          17       trying to remember back bits, if that makes sense.

          18       I hope I explained that okay.

          19   MR UNDERWOOD:  I want to move on.  In the period between the

          20       shooting taking place and you making your statement on

          21       7 August, the statement we have just been looking at --

          22   A.  Yes, sir.

          23   Q.  -- did you talk to any of the other team members about

          24       what had happened?

          25   A.  No, sir.


                                            80
 

 

 


           1   Q.  At all?

           2   A.  No.

           3   Q.  We've heard that this team operated as a unit generally;

           4       is that fair?

           5   A.  Again, I don't want to go into, you know, how many teams

           6       there are of us.  However, it was a mixed team that day.

           7       Primarily it was one team and I was actually the other

           8       team and I was staffing up that day but I would work

           9       with them quite regularly.

          10   Q.  W42 was a friend, for example?

          11   A.  Yes, he was, yes.

          12   Q.  Did you know W70?

          13   A.  Yes, I didn't know him that well because he's quite new

          14       to the team and the department but, yes, I know him.

          15   Q.  This was a very significant event, wasn't it?

          16   A.  Absolutely.  One I'll never forget, sir.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mixed teams.  Two teams mixed?

          18   A.  There's -- again we need to supply -- for a MASTS

          19       operation we would need to supply one Sergeant and ten

          20       PCs so, obviously, because of maybe annual leave or

          21       other commitments, the primary team may only have, we

          22       say, one Sergeant and seven PCs so the other team would

          23       man up or staff up and I was staffing up that day, to

          24       make up the numbers, if that makes sense.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were?


                                            81
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you were the one adding on the

           3       other.

           4   A.  The other team, so to speak, yes, sir.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So Q63, was he --

           6   A.  He was part of the other team.  If there's two teams,

           7       for example, I would be team one; they would be team

           8       two.  I hope I'm not confusing the ...

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's all right.  Thank you.

          10   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let's just go through this again.  You were

          11       saying it's a day you'll never forget.

          12   A.  Absolutely, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Not only had you shot a man who then died, but you had

          14       managed to over-penetrate one of those shots and shoot

          15       another officer.

          16   A.  Absolutely, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  Both of these were unique in your experience, were they

          18       not?

          19   A.  Yes, and hopefully will never, ever happen again, sir.

          20   Q.  And obviously this became a very notorious event within

          21       days, didn't it?

          22   A.  It did indeed, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  Nobody would blame you, I suspect, if you talked about

          24       the events in general to other officers, either in your

          25       team or in the team you were manning up for.  Are you


                                            82
 

 

 


           1       saying you just didn't discuss it at all?

           2   A.  No.  Again, sir, I probably get the impression you are

           3       probably edging towards conferring --

           4   Q.  I'm just asking you about discussing the thing in

           5       general, officer.

           6   A.  Again, I'm a professional officer, I know the rules

           7       around conferring and things; you are not allowed to

           8       discuss.  This is a big deal, a shooting.  Thankfully,

           9       it does not happen very often in London.  So it would

          10       not be something I would jeopardise by discussing with

          11       other officers.

          12           I'm aware, obviously, there's disorder going on and,

          13       to be honest with you, that's probably another reason

          14       not to discuss it because ... you know, the Duggan

          15       family didn't start the riots, I didn't start the riots

          16       but, you know, we can't ignore the fact that London and

          17       the country is burning sort of because of, to a certain

          18       degree, what happened.

          19   Q.  Let's just take W42.  You saw him when he got back from

          20       hospital, didn't you?

          21   A.  I did, that night sir, yes, I did.

          22   Q.  What did you say to him?

          23   A.  I gave him a massive hug.  It was such a relief to see

          24       him.

          25   Q.  Did you say, "Sorry"?


                                            83
 

 

 


           1   A.  I just said -- very cop -- "Are you okay?" and he just

           2       laughed and we just hugged.

           3   Q.  Let me just ask you now about how your account sits with

           4       the scientific evidence.  Let me see if I've got this

           5       right.

           6           On your account, when you were firing the first

           7       shot, Mr Duggan was pretty well square on to you?

           8   A.  Yes, there or thereabouts.

           9   Q.  Perhaps slightly to the left but basically square on.

          10           That he had the gun across his chest and was, as you

          11       say, raising it, but bringing it out using his wrist?

          12   A.  Correct, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  That he was pretty much upright.

          14   A.  Yes, there might have been -- his knees might have been

          15       bent ever so slightly, but, yes.  I cannot be exactly

          16       precise.

          17   Q.  Between the two shots, he had moved his right shoulder

          18       away from you?

          19   A.  Yes, he's there -- after the second -- once the first

          20       round impacted, it caused that flinching movement.

          21   Q.  Now, can we have a look at CD29922.  It will come up on

          22       screen.

          23           What's happened here is that scientists have got

          24       a replica of the jacket, maybe a different colour.

          25   A.  Okay, sir.


                                            84
 

 

 


           1   Q.  They've replicated the bullet holes and the wound tracks

           2       in the mannequin.  Have you seen this before?

           3   A.  I've seen it in newspapers, sir, but ...

           4   Q.  What you see is two rods, which are called trajectory

           5       rods, which you may know about.  Trajectory rod marked

           6       "Y" is the shot that goes through, basically, the bicep;

           7       do you follow?

           8   A.  Okay, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  Trajectory rod "X" is the fatal shot, the one that goes

          10       into Mr Duggan's chest and comes out his back.

          11   A.  Okay, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  Can you explain how there are differences between the

          13       two shots in terms of horizontal axis.

          14   A.  I can't sir.  As I say, my recollection at the time --

          15       bear in mind this is happening within a second at the

          16       very most -- was the first round impacted his chest,

          17       albeit I wouldn't have seen it penetrate him, if that

          18       makes sense, and, again, my recollection at the time was

          19       that the second round hit his arm.  However, can I be

          20       100 per cent sure in a split second?  I can't be.

          21   Q.  No.  You are not, either, answering the question I asked

          22       you.

          23   A.  I do apologise, sorry.

          24   Q.  Not at all.  Let me be clear so it's fair to you.  What

          25       I'm asking you about at the moment -- never mind which


                                            85
 

 

 


           1       shot was first or second -- is how it is that one of

           2       them is more or less horizontal and one of them is going

           3       down at an angle?

           4   A.  Sorry, I cannot explain that.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I ask you then: when you fired

           6       the two shots --

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- had you moved your MP5 at all or

           9       do you think you were very much in the same position?

          10   A.  No, sir, I think I was standing still because I wanted

          11       to have a stable shooting platform because, you know,

          12       you're more accurate when you stand still.  So

          13       I wouldn't have moved and I don't think I would have

          14       moved the weapon because I would have kept the same

          15       central -- the same point of aim, which would have been

          16       his central body mass.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So the bullets are coming out of the

          18       same place?

          19   A.  I would guess so sir, yes.

          20   MR UNDERWOOD:  The other angle of difference is shown at

          21       CD30533; let's have a look at that.

          22           Now, this is the trajectory rod coming out of the

          23       back.  What this reflects is that the chest shot goes in

          24       on the right-hand side of Mr Duggan's chest and comes

          25       out towards the left hand lower back.  So never mind the


                                            86
 

 

 


           1       downward angle for the moment; there's also a right to

           2       left angle, as far as he's concerned, so left to right

           3       as far as you're concerned.  Again, can you account for

           4       that?

           5   A.  No, sir.  Again, my recollection is -- was where I was

           6       standing.  So I can't, sir.

           7   Q.  Because on no version of him being square on to you but

           8       slightly to your left or him flinching away from -- his

           9       right hand away from you, could that have happened,

          10       could it?

          11   A.  Sir, again, I can't account for that.  Obviously all

          12       I can do, sir, is give you what my -- my perception at

          13       the time was.

          14   Q.  Now let's look at the jacket.  If we look at CD30532, if

          15       we zoom in on this.

          16           Ignore the hands if you can.  This -- if we close in

          17       even more -- shows a trajectory rod, we have just seen

          18       the tip of it, going into the jacket.

          19   A.  Okay, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  What this reflects is the fact that the chest wound,

          21       which is towards the right, upper part of Mr Duggan's

          22       chest, caused two bullet holes in the lower left part of

          23       the jacket.  So something, whether his left hand, his

          24       right hand, the wind or whatever it was, has caused the

          25       jacket to go right up there.  Can you account for that?


                                            87
 

 

 


           1   A.  No.  Again, sir -- I don't want to keep coming back to

           2       this freeze frame moment but, again, the only tunnel

           3       vision I had was his right hand and the gun in his hand.

           4       So, no, sir, I cannot account for that.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In your freeze frame moment, you've

           6       got a moment of impact on his chest, haven't you?

           7   A.  Yes, yes.  But I can't account for --

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What was covering his chest?

           9   A.  Again, sir, I cannot remember.  Because obviously I can

          10       see from the jacket, you know, it's kind of like this

          11       (indicates); is that what you're saying?

          12   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

          13   A.  I can't remember that.  Again, my focus was on the gun.

          14   MR UNDERWOOD:  Your recall is that the jacket was open?

          15   A.  I remember it was open but, again, I can't tell you ...

          16       anything else, sir.

          17   Q.  All right.  Obviously, with the extensive checking and

          18       first aid that you carried out, you accept that there

          19       was a bullet wound in Mr Duggan's right bicep?

          20   A.  There was, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  We know one of your bullets, as you say, hit W42 in the

          22       holster towards the left hand side of his rib cage, if

          23       you like, or left-hand side midway down the rib cage?

          24   A.  Yes, sir.

          25   Q.  The other bullet; are you aware where that ended up?


                                            88
 

 

 


           1   A.  Not at the time.  I'm led to believe it ended up in the

           2       minicab but, again, I don't know if it was this one or

           3       whether it was the chest one or the arm one.  But I'm

           4       led to believe -- obviously as time went by, I became

           5       aware that one of the bullets had ended up in the

           6       minicab.

           7   Q.  Now, bearing in mind what you recall about relative

           8       positions, of you, W42 and Mr Duggan, can you account

           9       for how the bullet ended up in the minicab?

          10   A.  No, I can't.  Again, you can't -- I am not a ballistics

          11       expert but you can't be precise where a bullet will

          12       travel, with ricochets and so on and so forth.  So, no,

          13       I cannot account for that, sir, if that's the question

          14       you're asking me.

          15   Q.  How do the shell casings eject from an MP5?

          16   A.  Again, when you bring the weapon up, the bullet goes out

          17       of the barrel and then the casing comes out of the

          18       ejector port and it flies in the air and then lands

          19       wherever.

          20   Q.  You are indicating to the right.  Does it fly out to the

          21       right-hand side of the gun?

          22   A.  Yes, it comes out to the right, yes.

          23   Q.  So, upper bit?

          24   A.  It would be elevated up because of energy within the

          25       weapon system, so it would be flung in the air.  And


                                            89
 

 

 


           1       again, it's fairly unpredictable where casings will land

           2       and how they exit.  But it comes out of the ejector

           3       port.

           4   Q.  On the right-hand side?

           5   A.  It does, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  What I want to do is put a hypothesis that could fit

           7       what the scientists say.

           8   A.  Okay, sir.

           9   Q.  We have not heard the scientific evidence yet, and once

          10       it's tested it may not support the hypothesis.

          11   A.  Okay, sir.

          12   Q.  To give you the fairest possible opportunity to deal

          13       with it, I want to do it now.  Is that all right?

          14   A.  Okay, sir, absolutely, yes.

          15   Q.  If you need time to think about any of this, then say

          16       so.

          17           I want to suggest to you, first of all, that the

          18       shot that was fired that hit W42 was more or less

          19       horizontal; would you accept that?

          20   A.  Sorry, I do apologise, I just want to get this right.

          21   Q.  The shot that was fired that hit W42 in the radio was

          22       more or less horizontal?

          23   A.  I don't know, sir.

          24   Q.  It went from roughly your arm pit level, didn't it, your

          25       shoulder level?


                                            90
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  To a little below his arm pit?

           3   A.  Okay, I see what you're saying.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Almost parallel with the ground.

           5   A.  Well, I presume so, sir, yes.

           6   MR UNDERWOOD:  What we're told by the scientists is that the

           7       shot that went through Mr Duggan's bicep went through

           8       more or less horizontally; do you follow?

           9   A.  Yes.  Horizontal as well, okay.

          10   Q.  What I want to test with you, and this is the question

          11       you were answering when I asked you a different one, is

          12       how certain you are about which shot was which?  Do you

          13       follow?

          14   A.  Yes, I do.  Again, I was asked by the IPCC probably

          15       12 -- around a year ago -- the same question.  And,

          16       again, I thought long and hard about it, to be honest

          17       with you, and I done a statement to that effect.

          18           Again, my perception at the time was the first round

          19       impacted on his right chest and the second round

          20       impacted on his right arm.  Can I be 100 per cent sure?

          21       Can I be, you know, certain?  No, I can't.  Because

          22       I never saw the rounds actually penetrate his body, if

          23       that makes sense.  And, again, you know, this is a fast

          24       moving incident, this is happening in a split second.

          25           I'm aware of, obviously, you know -- you know, I'm


                                            91
 

 

 


           1       a good marksman, on a nice range, in nice conditions,

           2       you know, with no pressure on.  You know, I'll hit the

           3       target 99 times out of 100.

           4           However, on this occasion, you know, I'm aware that

           5       in real life scenarios you may not be as accurate, if

           6       that makes sense.

           7   Q.  Stick with that scenario for the moment, the possibility

           8       then that the first shot actually hit the bicep; all

           9       right?

          10   A.  Okay, sir.

          11   Q.  That would mean the chest shot, which is angled

          12       downwards; do you follow?

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  Is the second shot.

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  What that would suggest is that Mr Duggan was bending

          17       forwards in some ways when he was hit with that shot.

          18   A.  Again, sir, my perception at the time is the first round

          19       impacted his chest and the second one hit his arm.

          20   Q.  Whichever the order is, you cannot account for the angle

          21       of the shot going downwards, can you?

          22   A.  No, I can't no.  If that's what you're asking, sorry,

          23       sir, I'm probably --

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's the angle, don't worry about

          25       the one and two.  What's being put to you is that the


                                            92
 

 

 


           1       evidence may come later on from the scientists, because

           2       of the angle of the rod through the body, that shows

           3       that the angle of Mr Duggan's body when that bullet went

           4       through his chest was in fact very much leaning down

           5       towards you.

           6   A.  Okay, I cannot account for that then, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If it came from your gun at the same

           8       position, then it would come through him, ending up

           9       perhaps in the cab.

          10   A.  Okay, sir.

          11   MR UNDERWOOD:  If the order of shots was arm first, chest

          12       second and the chest wound, as we know, is downwards,

          13       with the jacket being caught up in that wound, what

          14       I would suggest might have happened is this, and let's

          15       see how you comment on it: that you shot him in the arm

          16       first, he then flinched with his right shoulder

          17       forwards, not back, and he went down somewhat and

          18       brought the jacket up as if he's clasping his arm with

          19       his left hand and catching the jacket with it.

          20   A.  No.  Again, sir, my recollection at the time is, again,

          21       first round here (indicates), the gun has come round and

          22       then the second round has hit his arm.  So I probably

          23       disagree with you then, sir, if that's what you're

          24       saying.

          25   Q.  In addition, I want to put this possibility to you: that


                                            93
 

 

 


           1       if, when he was shot in the bicep, he was holding his

           2       arm close in to his chest and his elbow bent, as you've

           3       described, that the damage to the bicep was likely to

           4       mean he was going to drop his arm or drop the gun.  What

           5       would you say about that?

           6   A.  Sorry, I can't comment on that, to be honest.

           7       I couldn't possibly comment on that.

           8   Q.  So a scenario that the medical evidence and scientific

           9       evidence may suggest then is: the first shot is in the

          10       arm, he flinches towards you and flinches downwards,

          11       brings his left hand up as if to reach for that,

          12       catching the jacket, and, with the damage to the arm,

          13       not being able to use the gun; do you understand?

          14   A.  Yes.  I disagree with that then, sir.  Again, my

          15       recollection at the time is what I've described

          16       previously.

          17   Q.  Because if that had happened, that would not be

          18       presenting a threat to you, would it?

          19   A.  Where the gun is?

          20   Q.  Yes.  If he had been shot in the arm first, the gun arm,

          21       had flinched forwards --

          22   A.  So where is the gun pointing now, sir?

          23   Q.  By this stage, his bicep has been damaged.

          24   A.  Right, okay.  But he's still holding the gun, which is

          25       still a threat.


                                            94
 

 

 


           1           Sir, maybe I'm getting a bit confused here, sir,

           2       sorry.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we ought to take a break.

           4           I think what's happening, V53, and you would

           5       understand this, is we are in this Inquest and we are

           6       going through, hopefully in some form of order, dealing

           7       with the business, the planning, the operation, then

           8       working through what happened on the day at the very

           9       time.  This is why you are perhaps giving your evidence

          10       in the middle of the Inquest.  Then in a week or two's

          11       time we will be hearing from the scientific and forensic

          12       experts who are trying to reconstruct what you're

          13       saying.

          14   A.  Indeed, sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Underwood, on my behalf really,

          16       acting for the Inquest, is giving you an opportunity to

          17       see whether there's any comment that you would like to

          18       make from what we're expecting to hear rather than

          19       asking you to sit at the back of the Inquest for weeks

          20       and weeks and then say, "Well, you've heard what

          21       Professor this or doctor this said about that; what do

          22       you say".

          23   A.  Okay.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If there's any difficulties about

          25       it, and if you are saying, "It doesn't matter what we


                                            95
 

 

 


           1       say, my memory is still this", then I understand that

           2       and that will then be at least you being given a chance.

           3   A.  I appreciate that, sir.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's the sort of exercise we

           5       are --

           6   A.  Thank you for explaining.  Sorry, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I didn't want to make you puzzled in

           8       any way.

           9   MR UNDERWOOD:  Let's go back to that last question again,

          10       and it is my last question.

          11           If a man had been presenting, in the way Mr Duggan

          12       was, according to you, before you fired at him at all --

          13       yes -- and then you had fired a shot and he had then

          14       grabbed his right shoulder with his left arm, catching

          15       his jacket with it, flinched forward and flinched his

          16       right shoulder towards you --

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  -- would you have regarded him as still posing a threat?

          19   A.  It depends where the gun is, sir, to be honest.  Because

          20       the threat isn't how he's lunging, it's where the gun

          21       is.  And the gun is a threat.

          22   Q.  You are still satisfied, are you, the gun was in his

          23       hand while you shot him both times?

          24   A.  It's 804 days since this happened and I'm 100 per cent

          25       convinced he was in possession of a gun on shot one and


                                            96
 

 

 


           1       shot two.

           2   MR UNDERWOOD:  Very well.  Thank you very much, officer.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would that be a convenient moment?

           4           Yes, Mr Thomas?  Anything you want to say or would

           5       you want to say that when we break?

           6   MR THOMAS:  Can I just clarify one thing.  Mr Underwood has

           7       finished all of his questions now; is that right?

           8   MR UNDERWOOD:  Yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I wasn't going to put him on the

          10       spot actually because a kind Judge never says, "Is that

          11       it", just in case he thinks of something else over

          12       lunch.  So I was going to ask him at 2 o'clock, has he

          13       finished.  But he has now committed himself to finishing

          14       his evidence, so when we start at 2 o'clock then I shall

          15       be calling on those who represent the family to begin

          16       such questions as they may wish to put to V53.

          17           You stay there, I'll ask then for cameras to be

          18       turned off.  Members of the jury, thank you very much.

          19       Members of the jury, if you would like to go for

          20       an hour.


                                            97
 

 

          25   (1.05 pm)

 

                                            99
 

 


           1                     (The short adjournment)

           2   (2.00 pm)

           3                      (Proceedings delayed)

           4   (2.06 pm)

 

                                           100
 

 


          20                  (In the presence of the jury)

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will have the witness, V53 then,

          22       please, thank you.

          23                (The witness returned into court)

          24                         V53 (continued)

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, V53, you are

 


                                           103
 

 

 


           1       still under the oath you took before and I am just going

           2       to check finally with Mr Underwood to see whether he

           3       still has no questions.

           4   MR UNDERWOOD:  No more questions, thank you.

           5   A.  Thank you, sir.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Mansfield or Mr Thomas, you're

           7       representing first family.  Can we just make sure your

           8       microphone is picking up everything you are saying?

           9                      Questions by MR THOMAS

          10   MR THOMAS:  Good afternoon, V53, I represent the loved ones

          11       of Mark Duggan.

          12   A.  Hello, sir.

          13   Q.  V53, can I just go through some basics with you.  Can

          14       you hear me okay?

          15   A.  Just about, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  I will just try to move this a bit closer to me.  Can

          17       you hear me now?

          18   A.  I can, thank you, sir.

          19   Q.  All right.  Let's start with your experience as a police

          20       officer.  When did you say you joined the Metropolitan

          21       Police?

          22   A.  1997, sir.

          23   Q.  Were you working as a police officer before then?

          24   A.  No, sir.

          25   Q.  So you came straight into the Met and that's when you


                                           104
 

 

 


           1       gained your first experience as a police officer; is

           2       that right?

           3   A.  It was indeed, sir, yes.

           4   Q.  Okay.  Again just one other question.  Before starting

           5       with the Metropolitan Police, did you have any

           6       experience with firearms?

           7   A.  I was in the Territorial Army in -- somewhere else.

           8   Q.  Fine.  Help us: how many years were you in the TA?

           9   A.  Probably around two and a half years, from what I can

          10       recall.

          11   Q.  So you had training with firearms there, did you?

          12   A.  Yes, I did, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Can I just concentrate on your experience with firearms

          14       before you joined the Met.  Before you joined the Met,

          15       did you have cause to use a firearm?

          16   A.  No, sir.

          17   Q.  Right.  So you just had training with one?

          18   A.  Yes, I did, sir, yes.

          19   Q.  If I can just deal with some general policing matters.

          20       By the time of this incident, in August 2011, you had

          21       roughly how many years' experience?

          22   A.  I think approximately 14, 14 or there or thereabouts.

          23   Q.  So it would be fair to say that you were not green in

          24       the job; do you understand what I mean by the expression

          25       "you were not green in the job"?


                                           105
 

 

 


           1   A.  I have heard the expression, sir.  I would like to think

           2       I wasn't green, sir.

           3   Q.  You knew the importance of giving an honest and accurate

           4       account?

           5   A.  Absolutely, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  You know that on various documents that you fill in --

           7       I am not going to go through all of them, the jury have

           8       seen some of these documents --

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We are picking part of the

          10       microphone.  There is another microphone there recording

          11       you which is not doing very well.  Let's see how that

          12       goes.  Carry on asking questions then we can see if the

          13       microphone is picking you up.

          14   MR THOMAS:  I'll speak a little bit louder but try not to

          15       raise the heat.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, no, you just speak loudly when

          17       otherwise you are speaking quietly and vice-versa.

          18   MR THOMAS:  Okay.  If we can just go back then to your

          19       policing experience.  You know the importance of

          20       documents you fill in?

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  We've seen, on some of the documents, that there is

          23       what's known as a declaration of truth; you know what

          24       I'm talking about?

          25   A.  Yes, I do, sir, yes.


                                           106
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You also know about the importance of first accounts?

           2   A.  Yes, I do, sir, yes.

           3   Q.  So none of this was new to you in August 2011?

           4   A.  No, it wouldn't have been, sir.

           5   Q.  Let me move on.  You also would agree that, as a police

           6       officer, and in particular as a firearms officer, you

           7       were given specialist training in relation to the use

           8       and deployment of firearms; correct?

           9   A.  Yes, we were -- obviously we would have been trained for

          10       that, yes.

          11   Q.  If I can just touch upon that, you knew the importance

          12       that, should you discharge your firearm and if somebody

          13       was injured or killed, you would have to account for

          14       that?

          15   A.  Absolutely.  We are accountable for our action.

          16   Q.  Would you agree with the following propositions:

          17       firstly, in relation to the use of your firearm, each

          18       and every shot that you discharge has to be justified?

          19   A.  Absolutely.  Every round we discharge we have to be

          20       accountable for it.  We're different to the military

          21       rules of engagement, I suppose.  Every round that we

          22       discharge we have to account for that and justify it.

          23       So, yes.

          24   Q.  Would you also agree with this: each and every round

          25       that you discharge and you have to justify has to be


                                           107
 

 

 


           1       justified to a high standard, particularly if you harm

           2       somebody?

           3   A.  Absolutely -- sorry, I'll let you finish -- obviously it

           4       has to be justified and it has to be lawful.  So, yes,

           5       it has to be justified, yes, sir.

           6   Q.  You know the test is: "Was it absolutely necessary to

           7       use or deploy the force?"

           8   A.  Yes, yes, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  Okay.  Can I just be clear on this before I go on: your

          10       evidence is, if I have understood the gist of it, that

          11       when you did deploy your firearm, when you did use your

          12       firearm, you realised what you were doing, this wasn't

          13       a question of you shooting blindly; would that be fair?

          14   A.  Absolutely.  Yes, I didn't shoot blindly.  I've shot

          15       because there's a threat in front of me.

          16   Q.  I'm breaking it up and forgive me if I'm stating the

          17       obvious.

          18   A.  Sorry, sir.

          19   Q.  If I state the obvious, bear with me.  You were not

          20       shooting blindly, you were shooting at a specific

          21       threat?

          22   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct, yes.

          23   Q.  Indeed, between the two shots that you fired, you

          24       reassessed the situation, formed the view that there was

          25       still a threat and engaged the threat a second time?


                                           108
 

 

 


           1   A.  That's correct.  I've assessed, fired one round,

           2       reassessed and then fired a second round and then

           3       reassessed again, yes.

           4   Q.  I'm going to put that on the shelf and come back to

           5       that, if I may.

           6   A.  Okay.

           7   Q.  When you got back to the police station, okay,

           8       Leman Street --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  I'm on the 4 August, forgive me, I should make that

          11       clear.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  When you get back to the police station after the

          14       shooting, we know that, according to the log, you count

          15       your ammunition out at about 11.30, I think it was;

          16       that's when you check your ammunition in?

          17   A.  I believe so, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  Okay.  Before that time, had you had any information in

          19       relation to the Bruni?  The Bruni is the firearm that

          20       was found in the sock.

          21   A.  Sir, can I just reflect, because I was informed

          22       something was found.  Can I just refer back to my

          23       statement.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What do you want to look at?

          25   A.  Just back to my statement because I remember a member of


                                           109
 

 

 


           1       the IPCC stopped me on the stairs during the

           2       post-incident procedure to tell me that a non-police

           3       firearm was recovered but I can't exactly remember what

           4       time that was.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  On 4 August?

           6   A.  On 4 August, yes.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You think there's something in --

           8   A.  I think I remember noting it somewhere.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You look for it, if you find it, let

          10       us know, and then you tell us.

          11   A.  (Pause)

          12           I've got here on my statement, which was completed

          13       on 23 August 2012 -- so we're a year later -- I was

          14       asked to clarify some things.  I've got written down

          15       here -- I have not got the exact time:

          16           "I was stopped on the stairs by IPCC who informed me

          17       a firearm, non-police issue, had been recovered from the

          18       scene."

          19            But I haven't got the time, sir.

          20   MR THOMAS:  Forgive me, that wasn't my question.  Because

          21       you knew, according to certainly the evidence you gave

          22       today and the evidence that you gave at the two

          23       Hutchinson-Foster trials --

          24   A.  I follow, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  -- you already knew there was a firearm that had been


                                           110
 

 

 


           1       recovered because you told us that --

           2   A.  Sorry, I thought you were asking about back at the

           3       police station when I knew.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He was, that's right.

           5   A.  If you ask me at the scene if I knew a firearm has been

           6       recovered, yes, I was.  I was aware.

           7   MR THOMAS:  My question is: when did you learn whether or

           8       not that firearm, which had been found at the scene, had

           9       been either used or not used; do you follow?

          10   A.  Has been discharged?

          11   Q.  Yes?

          12   A.  I never knew.  I never knew if it was fired -- I was

          13       never informed if it was fired or not fired.  If that's

          14       what you're asking me, sir.

          15   Q.  Yes.  But you say this: you say that you knew clearly in

          16       your mind at the time -- I'm talking about at the

          17       scene -- when you engage with Mr Duggan, you knew in

          18       your mind, you were absolutely clear, that Mark Duggan

          19       hadn't fired a shot.

          20   A.  Yes, absolutely sure that Mark Duggan never fired at us.

          21   Q.  Can you help me with this: I just want to do some

          22       timings with you.  If we look at your statement that you

          23       did on the night, I think that's to be found -- just

          24       bear with me one second.  (Pause)

          25           Sorry, can we turn to CD page 6.  This is your


                                           111
 

 

 


           1       pocket book.  You have the original there?

           2   A.  I do indeed, sir, yes, thank you.

           3   Q.  We can see that you started your pocket book at 2240

           4       because you've got that written down.

           5   A.  I do indeed, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  Just for a timeline, just to assist the jury, if you

           7       turn to page 8 and if we enlarge that and bring it down,

           8       we can see a time stamp, correct?

           9   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          10   Q.  What time did you timestamp your notebook?

          11   A.  22.52.

          12   Q.  So the one thing that we were clear on, in your pocket

          13       book you had completed your account, your first

          14       account --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- before 11 o'clock?

          17   A.  Yes.  As I say, I started at 2240, completed at 2250

          18       and, as you can see there, I date stamped it 22.52.

          19   Q.  Two minutes to get to the franking machine?

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   Q.  Because the franking machine is quite near -- you

          22       mean -- where were you, in a room in Leman Street?

          23   A.  Yes, it was -- again, I was lucky, I suppose, because

          24       there wasn't people waiting for their -- what do you

          25       call it?


                                           112
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I just call it a franking machine, a time stamp machine?

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What do you call it?

           3   A.  I think we call it an ATR, an automatic time reader,

           4       I think.  I don't know the mnemonic moniker, I'm sorry,

           5       sir.

           6   MR THOMAS:  Can I say this: nothing turns on the name,

           7       timestamp, franking machine, whatever?

           8   A.  I don't disagree with you, absolutely.

           9   Q.  In any event, the one thing we can see is your account

          10       was completed before 11 o'clock?

          11   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  Who did you make or write up your account with?  Who was

          13       with you when you wrote your account up?

          14   A.  I did the account in the Federation office at Leman

          15       Street.

          16   Q.  My question was: who was with you when you wrote your

          17       account up?

          18   A.  I think I was alone.  I didn't have any other officers

          19       present but my solicitor may well have been with me, if

          20       I can recall.

          21   Q.  Federation rep?

          22   A.  No.

          23   Q.  So just your solicitor, right.

          24           We know, because we've heard evidence from some of

          25       the other officers who have come after you, that the


                                           113
 

 

 


           1       vast bulk of the rest of the team, the firearms team,

           2       they made their notes after 11.00, 11.30, thereabouts,

           3       were you aware of that?

           4   A.  No, I wasn't, sir.  I'll take your word for that.

           5   Q.  Can I come back to your first account and I just wanted

           6       to run through this with you.  Again, just for the jury

           7       in terms of getting the timeline?

           8   A.  Okay.

           9   Q.  So if you bear with me.  The very first account you gave

          10       as to why you shot Mark Duggan was at 18.15.  We can see

          11       that at CD1042.

          12   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  It's up on the screen.

          14   A.  Thank you.

          15   Q.  We can see that it's not in your hand, not in your

          16       handwriting --

          17   A.  No, it's not, sir.

          18   Q.  -- but you signed it?

          19   A.  I do indeed, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  We can see that's timed 18.50?

          21   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  In fact, that first account was then recorded in a log,

          23       and we can see that at CD621.  If you go down to

          24       1940 hours:

          25           "I got out of the Charlie car, subject got out of


                                           114
 

 

 


           1       nearside rear taxi door holding a gun shaped item, in

           2       a sock, in his hand.  He began to raise it up in my

           3       direction.  I fired several shots."

           4   A.  Sorry, can I be -- what log is this?  I do apologise.

           5   Q.  This is a log which records your account, the account

           6       that we have just looked at, right, and it's just

           7       repeating word for word your account?

           8   A.  Okay, sir, yes.

           9   Q.  But it's a log and you can see it's timed at 1940 hours?

          10   A.  Okay, thank you.

          11   Q.  It's the post-incident management log.

          12   A.  I apologise, thank you.

          13   Q.  I want to ask you about one other document.  Can we go

          14       to CD32786; this is Z50, that's Detective Superintendent

          15       Mallon's note, yes?

          16   A.  Okay.

          17   Q.  I want to take you to this because it's referring to

          18       a call from Z51.  It's very faint so you have to bear

          19       with me.  It talks about you going into Ferry Lane near

          20       Tottenham and then it says this, referring to Mark

          21       Duggan.  I cannot make out the first word, but it says:

          22           "... in a cab coming towards us.  He pulls gun as he

          23       got out of cab."

          24           Do you see that, can you just make that out?  Then:

          25           "Shot in chest."


                                           115
 

 

 


           1   A.  To be honest, it's not the best handwriting I've ever

           2       seen but I can make it out roughly.  I'll take your word

           3       for it, sir.

           4   Q.  So there's a suggestion, because -- I'm going to suggest

           5       the account as to what Mark did was essentially coming

           6       from you; that must be right, isn't it?

           7   A.  Again, my recollection at the time was, after I'd

           8       carried out first aid and handed over to the ambulance

           9       service, I sat back in our control vehicle, which is the

          10       4x4 Discovery.  Then at 18.50 Inspector Elliott

          11       approached me and I gave him that verbal account.  So,

          12       again, I don't know if that account --

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can I just help the jury, hopefully?

          14       The first account you have given to the Inspector you

          15       give from the control car --

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and you said what you said in

          18       that document.

          19   A.  I do indeed, sir, yes.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did you put any other account

          21       between then and when it came into your notebook later

          22       on that evening?

          23   A.  No, no, that's the only verbal account I gave of the

          24       scene.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think that what's being asked is


                                           116
 

 

 


           1       where did this particular wording come from?

           2   A.  The only person I spoke to at the scene to give a verbal

           3       account to, if that's what you're asking me, Mr Thomas,

           4       was Inspector Elliott and that's what's recorded here.

           5       I didn't speak to anyone else about the account.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.

           7   MR THOMAS:  Then we come to your notebook that you make on

           8       the night.  You have the original there.

           9   A.  I do indeed, sir, yes thank you.

          10   Q.  That's 4 August.

          11   A.  Yes, that night, yes.

          12   Q.  Then the next account you give -- just running through

          13       the chronology, if I may -- is the more detailed account

          14       that you give on 7 August?

          15   A.  Yes, yes, sir.  Yes, that's correct, yes.

          16   Q.  That 7 August account runs to, in the typed version,

          17       11 pages?

          18   A.  It does indeed, yes.  In my handwritten format it's 24,

          19       yes.

          20   Q.  Okay.  Then, just continuing with the chronology, you

          21       are asked to assist the IPCC.  They ask you for some

          22       additional information to clarify your statement of

          23       7 August.

          24   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  You give a further statement dated 18 January 2012.


                                           117
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Then the IPCC come back to you, do they not?

           3   A.  They do indeed, yes.

           4   Q.  They ask you for some more clarification of your

           5       statements?

           6   A.  Yes, they do, yes.

           7   Q.  Again looking at the typed version, you give a further

           8       eight-page typed statement, that's on 25 May 2012?

           9   A.  Sir, I've got here 22 May.

          10   Q.  Forgive me, 22 May 2012.

          11   A.  Yes, not a problem.  Again, yes, I hand wrote that and

          12       that came, in my writing, 14 pages.

          13   Q.  Right.  Then, on 6 June 2012, you produce a one-page

          14       statement, one line, where you exhibit your map?

          15   A.  I haven't got it here in front of me but I do recall

          16       doing an exhibit statement.

          17   Q.  I wonder if we can call that up, it's CS91.  Do you see

          18       that?  If that could just be enlarged.

          19   A.  Yes, that's fine, thank you, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  "Further to my previous statements, I wish to produce

          21       a map which I exhibit as V53/[I]."

          22   A.  I think that's "1", sir.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's "1", I think.

          24   MR THOMAS:  Just so we are clear, that's the map

          25       Mr Underwood put up on the screen this morning?


                                           118
 

 

 


           1   A.  It was, with the sort of overview of where the stop

           2       happened and my A box.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Your box A?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   MR THOMAS:  Right.  Then you are asked to clarify some

           6       further matters in August 2012 and you produce another

           7       witness statement for the IPCC, and that statement is

           8       dated 23 August 200012.

           9   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.

          10   Q.  The next statement that I have for you is -- there's

          11       a statement dated 28 November but I'll come back to that

          12       in a moment.

          13   A.  Okay, sir.

          14   Q.  Let's stop there.  I've run through all these witness

          15       statements and you can see this matter has been very

          16       much with you since the shooting and you've been asked,

          17       on several occasions, to clarify matters, to think about

          18       things, to produce an account, correct?

          19   A.  That is correct, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  V53, if you can just help me with this.  This morning

          21       when you were giving your evidence, one of the things

          22       you said was:

          23           "It's been 804 days ..."

          24           I think that was the number you gave.

          25   A.  It was, sir, yes.


                                           119
 

 

 


           1   Q.  "... since this incident."

           2           Can I just ask you this, and it's a serious

           3       question: 804 days, is that something that you went away

           4       and you counted up the days since the incident or --

           5       or -- is it because, as each day goes by, you tick

           6       another day off so you're thinking "Gosh, it's Day 800,

           7       now it's Day 801, now it's Day 802"?  How did you come

           8       up with that figure of 804 days?

           9   A.  Because, sir, I've been off operational duties for that

          10       length of time and, as you can imagine, when you're

          11       involved in a police shooting it doesn't only affect the

          12       deceased but it affects me and my family.  I don't want

          13       to go into detail about my family.

          14   Q.  No, I am not asking you to.

          15   A.  But having been involved in a fatal shooting has had

          16       a detrimental effect on my home life.

          17   Q.  Sorry, you didn't answer my question.

          18   A.  I think I did, sir.

          19   Q.  Forgive me.  The question was: in relation to the 804

          20       days, what I'm interested in knowing is, when you came

          21       here today to give evidence, that figure of 804, is that

          22       something that you had to look at a calendar and

          23       calculate how many days, that you specifically counted

          24       the days up or is it, as each day has gone by, you've

          25       thought this is Day 53, this is Day 54, so as the time


                                           120
 

 

 


           1       is going by you're counting the days off; which is it?

           2   A.  It's probably none of them, sir, to be honest with you.

           3   Q.  How did you come up with the figure of 804?

           4   A.  It's something that I remember because, as I said to

           5       you, it's 804 days since it's happened and as I said --

           6       I don't get what you're trying to ask me, sir.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If somebody says is it either one

           8       thing or another and it's neither of those two things,

           9       then please say that --

          10   A.  It's none of them, yes, I don't get that, sir.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and if it isn't -- anyway.  But

          12       you calculated your 804.  Two years have gone by, we can

          13       add that.

          14   A.  I do, in the nicest possible way, sir, it's a date that

          15       is always -- that will always be with me, for obvious

          16       reasons, and it's a number that I remember because I'm

          17       off operational duties that long.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Let's press on.

          19   MR THOMAS:  In any event, what you're saying is, if I've

          20       understood you correctly, it was an incident that's

          21       affected you, it's impacted upon you and, as you have

          22       just indicated, it's impacted upon your home life as

          23       well.

          24   A.  Indeed, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  Do you remember that item I put on the shelf, I'm just


                                           121
 

 

 


           1       going to take it back off the shelf.  It was in relation

           2       to the first account you gave.

           3   A.  Okay, sir.

           4   Q.  Can we just have a look at that, please?

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Talking about the statement of the

           6       4th, rather than the --

           7   MR THOMAS:  It's up on the screen.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Oh, that one, to the Inspector when

           9       you are sitting in the control car.

          10   MR THOMAS:  The very first account.  Now, when you were

          11       asked questions about in this morning, you said this:

          12       you said, in relation to the very last sentence there,

          13       "I fired several shots", you said:

          14           "I am 99.999 per cent certain that I fired two

          15       shots."

          16           Yes?

          17   A.  Yes, sir.

          18   Q.  In response to a question from the learned Coroner, he

          19       asked you this, he said:

          20           "Apart from that sentence, are you sure about

          21       everything else?"

          22           You said "Yes".

          23   A.  That's correct, yes.

          24   Q.  It that's still the case, is it?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           122
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Help me with this, V53.  Here you are, you've told us

           2       that you've been trained, you've got to justify each and

           3       every shot.  You know that on this day there were, you

           4       perceived, two times when Mark Duggan, you say,

           5       threatened you --

           6   A.  That's correct.

           7   Q.  -- and your colleagues?

           8   A.  Yes, yes.

           9   Q.  You say that you were sure you fired two shots.  You

          10       didn't fire more than two shots at him?

          11   A.  No.

          12   Q.  You say you were sure that Mark Duggan didn't fire

          13       a shot at you?

          14   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          15   Q.  Why did you put "several shots"?

          16   A.  Because, as I said at the time, you may suffer from

          17       perceptional distortion because, as I said, it's

          18       a freeze frame moment.  This incident happened within

          19       a couple of seconds.  So, again, by putting "several

          20       shots" down, I'm not trying to mislead anybody, I'm

          21       putting my hands up at the earliest opportunity to go,

          22       "Yes, I'm the officer who fired the shots, you don't

          23       need to look at other officers" because again, sir, in

          24       the nicest possible way, if I had to put down a number

          25       that was incorrect, I'm sure you would be -- and


                                           123
 

 

 


           1       barristers would be giving me a hard time now.

           2           So, again, I didn't want to be misleading, I didn't

           3       want to put down any false information and again by

           4       putting down "I fired several shots" I'm putting my

           5       hands up to go, "Yes, I'm the officer who fired the

           6       shots".

           7   Q.  Forgive me, V53, why not simply put down: I think

           8       I fired two shots.

           9   A.  Again, sir, this is my recollection.  These are my notes

          10       and the reason why I said "I fired several shots" is the

          11       reason I gave you a second ago.

          12   Q.  Sorry, I asked you a question and the question is: why

          13       not --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think he's answered it actually

          15       but if you want to repeat the question then I think

          16       you've got the answer.

          17   MR THOMAS:  Nobody could take objection or criticise you if

          18       you say "I think I fired two shots", could they?

          19   A.  Again, sir, from experience of dealing with barristers,

          20       and I don't mean this derogatory, if I say "I think"

          21       I guarantee at a court case or whatever you would give

          22       me a really, really hard time and then you would start

          23       going "Well, Officer, if you think that, do you doubt

          24       something else?"  Because that's the experience I have.

          25           So by saying "I fired several shots", again, I'm


                                           124
 

 

 


           1       giving you -- at the earliest opportunity I'm putting my

           2       hands up and say "Yes, I fired the shots".

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If you said "I fired two shots", you

           4       would not have all these questions this time, would you?

           5   A.  It is --

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You could have said two, couldn't

           7       you?

           8   A.  I could by again, sir, I wanted to be 100 per cent

           9       accurate with my evidence.  Again, I have just been

          10       through a traumatic incident and bits and pieces.

          11       Again, there's pieces of the jigsaw in my head that was

          12       going all around the place, bearing in mind this is only

          13       nine minutes after Mr Duggan is pronounced dead.  I just

          14       wanted to have -- just think about it logically, if that

          15       makes sense.  I hope that's coming across how I mean it

          16       to come across.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  "I fired two shots"?

          18   MR THOMAS:  Why not simply say "I fired shots"?

          19   A.  I have said "I fired several shots", which means more

          20       than one.

          21   Q.  That's misleading, isn't it, because you didn't fire

          22       several shots?

          23   A.  I did, I fired more than one, sir.  That's my

          24       recollection and that's my interpretation of "I fired

          25       several", which is more than one.


                                           125
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Indeed, officer, when you get to your statement later on

           2       in your pocket book --

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  -- you say you fired a number of shots.

           5   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  Can I ask you this and come straight to the point: we

           7       know that the colleagues you were with don't start to

           8       write up their notebooks until after you have completed

           9       your notebook, just in terms of timing?  That's the

          10       evidence that we've heard.

          11   A.  I take your word for it but I wasn't aware of it.

          12   Q.  My question is: were you aware that none of your

          13       colleagues say the number of shots that you fired?  They

          14       all say "fired several shots" or "fired a number of

          15       shots".

          16   A.  I'm not aware of that, sir.  I've never seen their

          17       statements.

          18   Q.  Fine.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just so we get the suggestion, it's

          20       sort of coming as though it's part of the training that

          21       if you are in this situation what you should do is never

          22       say the number, you always say "several" or "a number",

          23       or perhaps one.

          24   A.  To be honest with you, my recollection, when I was being

          25       trained in the sort of post-incident procedure, is


                                           126
 

 

 


           1       unfortunately there has been occasions where officers

           2       have fired a number of shots and because -- again, I am

           3       no expert in this but obviously there's perceptional

           4       distortion.  Some officers have come back and some have

           5       actually thought "Have I actually fired?" because of the

           6       traumatic incident that they've been involved with and

           7       they have not been able to recollect the number of

           8       rounds they have fired.

           9           So it's kind of training as well, in the nicest

          10       possible way.  We want to assist the investigation but

          11       we don't want to give wrong evidence so by saying

          12       "several shots", it is partly training, I suppose --

          13       that --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are you expressly trained for this

          15       or is it something of a practice -- you are not on the

          16       line on this particular bit of the wording at all, so

          17       don't take it personally, but we are getting this

          18       impression, that no one wants to actually say the number

          19       of shots and I just want to know why really, whether

          20       it's training or --

          21   A.  Again, sir, I think it's from experience within our

          22       department, because there's been a number of shootings

          23       where, in the nicest possible way, officers have got --

          24       got a really, really hard time in the box for saying --

          25       say "I fired X amount of rounds" when in fact when they


                                           127
 

 

 


           1       do count back and they do bits and pieces it's actually

           2       more or less.  So I suppose it is kind of training.

           3           I remember being told just to put in "several shots"

           4       until you're 100 per cent sure in your head how many

           5       rounds you've actually fired to disclose it.  I hope

           6       that makes sense.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Let Mr Thomas ask you

           8       about something else then.

           9   MR THOMAS:  I wonder if we can put up any photograph,

          10       a photograph of the mini van.  That one will do.

          11           This is a photograph of the mini van -- the taxi

          12       van, yes?  You say that's gold, do you?

          13   A.  Is that the original mini van?

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This is the original one.

          15   A.  I do apologise.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's been taken off to a garage

          17       after the event and there it is.  Don't have any worries

          18       about the number of the van because it's been scrapped.

          19   A.  What is your question, sorry?

          20   Q.  You say that's gold, do you?

          21   A.  Looking at that now, I would have to concede with you it

          22       looks more silver than gold.

          23   Q.  I wonder if we've got a picture of the mini van during

          24       the day in sunlight.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There we are.


                                           128
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  You say that's gold, do you.

           2   A.  I have to be honest, sir, that looks more gold than

           3       silver because if you look at the sun -- I presume

           4       that's the sun on the front of it, that looks more of

           5       a goldy colour to me, being honest with you ... from

           6       where I'm sitting.

           7   Q.  Again, I just asked you about the number of shots and

           8       you have given me -- and whether you could explain why

           9       your colleagues said "number of shots" and you have

          10       given your answer in relation to that.  Let me ask you

          11       this: was there any discussion or conferring in relation

          12       to the colour of the mini van?

          13   A.  From what I recollect, when we done our notes, I think

          14       initially the gold was mentioned on the surveillance

          15       commentary, at the time, from what I can recollect, and

          16       then I think when we done our notes on the 7 August, I'm

          17       sure -- again I'm just going from memory now -- I think

          18       it was V59 may have done a -- sheets -- not A4 sheets,

          19       flip charts, and he -- I think we may have discussed

          20       what was the colour of it, or something like that, just

          21       to confirm that it was the colour.  From what I can

          22       remember.

          23   Q.  Why would you need to confer to confirm the colour of

          24       the mini van.  How is that a relevant matter that is

          25       appropriate to confer on?


                                           129
 

 

 


           1   A.  I think it is because obviously you want to get it

           2       right, sir, isn't it?  So if you are not sure of

           3       something, again, from memory, the surveillance

           4       commentary was gold and, again, the colour of the van

           5       was pretty irrelevant to me in the grand scale of

           6       things.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Why put it in the statement?

           8   A.  I suppose because I thought it was gold, gold in colour

           9       because the surveillance commentary mentioned it was

          10       a gold-coloured minicab, and I put that in the statement

          11       quite early doors.

          12   MR THOMAS:  Can we be clear on this?  Are you saying you put

          13       it in your statement because this was the commentary you

          14       received or are you saying you put it in your statement

          15       because this was your perception or are you saying

          16       something else?  Can we be clear?

          17   A.  I would probably say it was the commentary, from what

          18       I can recollect, that the surveillance team mentioned

          19       a gold -- when they described the minicab I can

          20       recollect the mention was a gold coloured minicab

          21       registration number as it was.  So I think that's where

          22       the gold came from, from what I can recollect.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That stuck in your mind?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   MR THOMAS:  Let's come to the event itself.  Can I ask you


                                           130
 

 

 


           1       please to look at your witness statement dated

           2       22 May 2012?

           3   A.  Yes, sir.

           4   Q.  That's CS83, please, do you have that; do you have that

           5       in front of you?

           6   A.  I do, if you just bear with me, sir.  (Pause)

           7           Yes, I do, thank you.

           8   Q.  Now, I just want to ask you about the matters leading up

           9       to when you saw Mark Duggan exiting the vehicle.

          10           You say this: you say, as your vehicle was

          11       approaching the minicab you actually saw Mark Duggan in

          12       the minicab.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  You could see him in the rear of the minicab?

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  You say that you could see movement in relation to Mark

          17       Duggan, as if he'd realised something was going on?

          18   A.  Again, I can't go in -- obviously, I can't speak for

          19       Mr Duggan but, yes, I would believe that he knew

          20       something was going on.

          21   Q.  That was your perception?

          22   A.  It was, sir, yes.

          23   Q.  You also say this: you say that you formed the

          24       expression that he was going to run, he was going to

          25       make a run for it?


                                           131
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   Q.  You say that you were aware, or you had some discussion

           3       at one of the briefings, that he might attempt to

           4       escape?

           5   A.  I do not think it was particularly around Mark Duggan

           6       himself, but it was around TMD members in general, that

           7       members of that gang are very police-aware, and so on.

           8       So I don't think it was actually around Mark Duggan

           9       himself but it was around the gang itself.  I hope

          10       that --

          11   Q.  In any event, you certainly had that in your mind?

          12   A.  It was definitely in my mind, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  You had that in your mind and that, you had been told,

          14       before, and here you are, on the operation and this is

          15       what you thought was going to happen.  This was your

          16       perception?

          17   A.  I didn't think -- I had -- I believe it was a high

          18       probability that an escape attempt would occur.

          19   Q.  I thought we just agreed this was just your perception?

          20   A.  It was, yes, yes.

          21   Q.  Right.  Tell me this: what training are you provided

          22       with in dealing with those who attempt to run?

          23   A.  Okay.  When we have our main tactical briefing, which is

          24       separate from the overview briefing, one of our

          25       contingencies, one of our deployment contingencies is to


                                           132
 

 

 


           1       deal with escapers.  So one of those is you deal with

           2       escapers, violent persons, attempted vehicle make offs,

           3       vehicle pursuits and persons in the premises.

           4           So if we're dealing with escapers, their contingency

           5       is for CO19 officers only to chase and detain and that's

           6       the contingency.

           7   Q.  So the contingency for an escaper is to chase and

           8       detain; you don't shoot them, do you?

           9   A.  Not unless there was a threat, sir, no.  If they start

          10       going on their toes I'll try and keep up with them and

          11       try and chase them.

          12   Q.  Now, let's come back to the stop itself.

          13   A.  Yes, sir.

          14   Q.  Can I just break this down, if I may.  If I have

          15       understood your evidence, the evidence you gave to

          16       Mr Underwood today, the first time you become aware of

          17       a gun is when -- your words -- Mark Duggan does

          18       a 180 pivot --

          19   A.  Yes.

          20   Q.  -- and faces you?

          21   A.  Yes, that's correct, yes.

          22   Q.  Up until that point in time, you hadn't seen any gun?

          23   A.  No, sir.

          24   Q.  You also say this -- and I just want to take a step

          25       back, if I may -- when the vehicle comes to a stop,


                                           133
 

 

 


           1       that's the minicab --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- you see -- you and your colleagues also stop and you

           4       begin to make your way up your vehicles.

           5   A.  Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  You see the minicab door begin to open, unopen.

           7   A.  Yes.  As we're pulling up, Mark Duggan is going across

           8       the back seat and the sliding door begins to open, yes.

           9   Q.  You see Mark Duggan get out?

          10   A.  Yes, yes, sir, I do, yes.  I would describe more of

          11       a jump out movement but, yes, get out.

          12   Q.  When you say he gets out, just so we're clear, you say

          13       that -- where are you at that point in time?  So bear

          14       with me, so when Mark Duggan's feet hit the pavement,

          15       where do you say you are?

          16   A.  I can't be -- obviously you're probably narrowing it

          17       down to a specific millisecond, I suppose, or second,

          18       probably my best recollection would be I would have been

          19       in the process of opening my car, one of my feet on the

          20       floor and I'm actually starting to exit my vehicle.

          21       (indicates).

          22   Q.  Then you are out of your vehicle.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Just so we're clear: when you are out of your vehicle,

          25       where do you say Mark Duggan is going?


                                           134
 

 

 


           1   A.  Initially he was facing W42, so he was facing towards

           2       the general direction of where the Alpha car is.

           3   Q.  Just so we are all clear on this, this is looking

           4       towards the brow of the hill towards where the Tube

           5       station is?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  So by the time you had got out of your vehicle, do you

           8       say Mark Duggan had gone in that general direction?

           9   A.  What I recall is he -- as I say he's jumped out, he's

          10       facing W42, W42 shouts "Stand still" and he's facing him

          11       but I don't think he moves from what I can recall, as in

          12       any further steps, he sort of stood still, sees W42 and

          13       stops.

          14   Q.  So just pause there.  So your evidence is he gets out --

          15   A.  Yes.

          16   Q.  -- but merely turns and is looking in the direction of

          17       where W42 is?

          18   A.  That's what I remember, sir, yes.

          19   Q.  So your evidence isn't that he gets out and initially

          20       goes towards W42?

          21   A.  Again, sir, I can't say with 100 per cent certainty that

          22       he took any steps but my recollection was that he faced

          23       him and stopped.  But, again, I cannot be 100 per cent

          24       certain.  He may have done a couple of steps, I don't

          25       know, but my recollection, when I've seen him, when he


                                           135
 

 

 


           1       jumped out, he stopped and he was facing W42.

           2   Q.  Yes.  You see, on your version of events, when -- what

           3       Mark Duggan has done is he's literally just -- however

           4       you want to put it -- jumped out of the vehicle and he's

           5       on the pavement right by the taxi doors; is that right?

           6   A.  Yes.  There or thereabouts, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  Just so we're clear, what you say is you say that you

           8       hear W42 say "Stand still"?

           9   A.  Yes.  He initially shouted armed police when he was

          10       within the cab --

          11   Q.  Don't worry about the conversation for the moment.  I'm

          12       concentrating on the positioning.  We'll come back to

          13       the conversation in a moment.

          14   A.  Okay.

          15   Q.  He gets out, W42 says whatever W42 says?

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  Mark Duggan, on your version of events, doesn't approach

          18       W42.  All he does is he pivots round, correct?

          19   A.  That's my recollection, sir, yes.

          20   Q.  When he pivots round, it's not your evidence, is it,

          21       that he makes any movement towards you, apart from

          22       pivoting around?

          23   A.  As I say, sir, at that time I don't remember because

          24       obviously it happened so quickly but all I remember,

          25       with certainty, is he's done a pivot, I don't know if he


                                           136
 

 

 


           1       turned left or to his right but he's ended up

           2       180 degrees facing me.  So I don't know, and I cannot be

           3       100 per cent certain if he done any steps.  I don't

           4       remember.

           5   Q.  The only reason why I ask you that is because, on your

           6       account, it's the pivot and as he's pivoting that the

           7       gun comes into focus.  You see the gun on your version

           8       of events, being pointed towards you, which is why you

           9       shoot.

          10   A.  Yes.  I think if I take it back a little bit, sir, if

          11       I may.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you divide that up a bit?

          13   A.  He's turned to face me and then he's stopped so wherever

          14       he stopped he hasn't moved, if that -- for that part,

          15       and the gun -- I didn't shoot straight away because I've

          16       seen the gun side-on to his body, I've assessed and it

          17       wasn't until he actually made an overt movement to move

          18       the gun away from his body that's when I fired.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But the hand where -- when you

          20       first -- on the pivot you first see his hand in the way

          21       that you demonstrated to the jury.

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Was that hand and arm in the same

          24       shape as far as you could see when he was facing W42?

          25   A.  If I may stand up.


                                           137
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes of course.

           2   A.  If W42 is there (indicates), and I'm there, again,

           3       I can't -- all I can see is his back I couldn't see his

           4       hands and bits and pieces and then, as I say, I don't

           5       know if he turned left or to hit right but he's turned

           6       to face me and that is when I've seen immediately that

           7       he's holding the hand gun in his right hand, without

           8       making any further movements.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Without making further movements?

          10   A.  From my recall.

          11   MR THOMAS:  At that position, your evidence is, apart from

          12       turning, he doesn't take, so far as you could see, any

          13       steps towards you?

          14   A.  I don't remember him taking any steps, sir.

          15   Q.  You don't remember him taking any steps towards you.

          16       Then you say the next thing you recall is the movement

          17       of the hand and I'll come back to that in a moment.

          18   A.  No problem, yes.

          19   Q.  You see, I need to put this to you: it might be

          20       suggested that Mark Duggan had moved a few feet in the

          21       direction towards the rear of the minicab, in other

          22       words the suggestion is he was running towards where you

          23       were or towards where the railings were; do you follow?

          24   A.  So it's clear in my head, sir, what you're saying is

          25       he's jumped out of the minicab.


                                           138
 

 

 


           1   Q.  And has made a beeline in your direction?

           2   A.  So he hasn't actually faced W42 basically jumped forward

           3       and begun straight for the railings, is that what you're

           4       asking me, sir?  That didn't happen, sir.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That didn't happen?  You're

           6       absolutely sure?

           7   A.  Absolutely.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Absolutely.

           9   MR THOMAS:  Can I come to the actual movement that you say

          10       Mark Duggan did.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  You say that as soon as you saw the gun --

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   Q.  -- you said you had your MP5 in the lower position, not

          15       in --

          16   A.  Sorry to interrupt -- carry on, sorry.

          17   Q.  You said you had your MP5 in the lower position so you

          18       could see above -- you had the peripheral vision above,

          19       before you brought it up to aim, correct?

          20   A.  Yes.  We call it the off-aim ready position so it's --

          21       I think you are demonstrating slightly lower down.  What

          22       I mean by off-aim ready, that's aim (indicates) and

          23       that's off-aim ready is less than a couple of

          24       centimetres down (indicates).

          25   Q.  In any event, you are not aiming at Mark Duggan, you say


                                           139
 

 

 


           1       that you could see your peripherally -- I think you said

           2       you had a "lovely view"?

           3   A.  I have, yes.

           4   Q.  Those were the words you used this morning?

           5   A.  I did indeed, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  Then you say you saw the gun as you pivots 180?

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   Q.  At that point, I think you said that your vision went

           9       directly towards the gun?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  V53, if I've understood your evidence correctly, at that

          12       point in time, until you discharge your second shot,

          13       your eyes did not leave the threat, the gun; is that

          14       right?

          15   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          16   Q.  You say that -- I wonder if we can just -- do we have

          17       the Bruni in court, sir?

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We do have both the gun that was

          19       found on the grass and the sock.

          20   MR THOMAS:  I wonder if both of those could be produced.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  Are they ready to be

          22       produced?  (Handed)

          23           Anyone handling this please have gloves on.  V53, if

          24       you are going to be asked to handle it, would you put

          25       a glove or two on, please?


                                           140
 

 

 


           1                (The witness put on latex gloves)

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Do you see that implement there?

           3       Have you ever seen it so close before?

           4   A.  No, and I don't want -- no I haven't, sir, no.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It has not been shown to you or --

           6       between 4 August and today?

           7   A.  (Shakes head) No.

           8   MR THOMAS:  I wonder if you could -- you have gloves on,

           9       could you just pick it up, please?

          10           Could you stand up, please, for us.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  We've been told it's not got the magazine in it so it's

          13       been made safe.

          14   A.  Okay.

          15   Q.  What I would like you to do now we've actually got the

          16       actual item that was found in the vicinity.  Could you

          17       just show us, demonstrate again, how you say Mark Duggan

          18       was holding this when you first saw him?

          19   A.  Like this (indicates).

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you just spin round and show me?

          21   A.  (indicates).

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Held like that?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   MR THOMAS:  What I would like you to do, V53, is I just want

          25       you to show us the threat -- "the tipping point",


                                           141
 

 

 


           1       I think was the expression you used --

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  -- the tipping point, why you decided to discharge your

           4       first round from your weapon?

           5   A.  Absolutely.  As I say, initially it was side-on to his

           6       stomach, so it's parallel to the floor.  So as I said

           7       earlier on I was hoping he would drop it but then as he

           8       began -- he basically made an overt movement so moved

           9       the gun away a couple of inches, so this is the tipping

          10       point to me (indicates) because you all you need to do

          11       now is bang or bang (indicates).  So the tipping point

          12       is here, sir, if that's what you're asking me.

          13   Q.  Can I ask you this --

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  Just to follow up on the

          15       question as to whether you had seen that gun or any gun

          16       between 4 August 2011 and today, now you have that

          17       exhibited there, I suppose the next question that one

          18       perhaps ought to ask is: is there anything about the

          19       appearance of that item which helps you?  Is it

          20       similar/dissimilar?

          21   A.  Unfortunately, sir, that's the gun, that's exactly the

          22       same.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Exactly in accord with your memory

          24       of what you saw on the 4th.

          25   A.  Absolutely.  I've never seen it.  Apart from in


                                           142
 

 

 


           1       Mr Duggan's hand, I've never seen it, except in

           2       a picture at the Kevin Hutchinson-Foster trial so I've

           3       never actually seen it as an exhibit before.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You were not asked to handle it in

           5       that trial?

           6   A.  No, no.

           7   MR THOMAS:  Help me with this --

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Put it down in front of you for

           9       a moment and have a seat.

          10   MR THOMAS:  In your first account, this is the account you

          11       gave to Inspector Elliott -- you say that he began to

          12       raise the gun up.

          13   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  That's not what you described today though.

          15   A.  I think, sir, I've described raise in many pages in my

          16       statement and the word I describe is "raises" to

          17       describe a movement.  So he's raised it as if he's going

          18       to -- as if he's going to move it into an aim position,

          19       raise it into an aim position.

          20   Q.  What you've described today, what you have just

          21       demonstrated, was Mr Duggan pivoting 180 --

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   Q.  -- and moving the gun out to the side; agreed?

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   Q.  You don't describe a raising movement with the gun, do


                                           143
 

 

 


           1       you?

           2   A.  I think I do, sir, if you look further on in my

           3       statement I have described it as raising --

           4   Q.  No, I'm talking about in your evidence today?

           5   A.  Just now I haven't.  But again if you are picking on the

           6       word "raise" --

           7   Q.  Listen to the question: in relation to what you have

           8       demonstrated today --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  -- you say that was the threat?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  All I'm putting to you is you haven't demonstrated, in

          13       terms of the threat, which is what caused you to fire,

          14       to shoot, you haven't demonstrated Mark Duggan raising

          15       the gun, have you?

          16   A.  Sir, I disagree.  If you're picking on the word "raise",

          17       to me that's what he was doing.  That's my -- these are

          18       my notes, this is the English I use to describe it.

          19       Okay, perhaps you would use a different word.  To me,

          20       raise is to describe a movement so it's side on to his

          21       body (indicates) and he's gone to raise it as if he's

          22       going to bring it up to an aim position.  That's how

          23       I use the word "raise".

          24   Q.  Your shots.

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           144
 

 

 


           1   Q.  The first shot, you say, hit him in the chest?

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  The second shot, you say, hit him in the arm?

           4   A.  Yes.

           5   Q.  Can I explore that with you?

           6   A.  Of course you can.

           7   Q.  I wonder if we can have the photograph of the mannequin,

           8       please, with the trajectory rods, the one with the --

           9       thank you.

          10           Can you see the trajectory rods?

          11   A.  Yes, I can, sir, yes.

          12   Q.  You can see the first trajectory rod, the one that's

          13       more or less under the armpit; do you see that?

          14   A.  Is that X or Y, sir?

          15   Q.  That's the Y, I believe?

          16   A.  Okay, sir.

          17   Q.  The one that's horizontal.

          18   A.  Okay, sir, yes, Y.

          19   Q.  Then you can see that the X is going at a downward

          20       angle; do you see that?

          21   A.  I do, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  I want to explore this with you, if I may, and your

          23       version of events.  Let's start with your positioning,

          24       okay.  You've got your MP5 and I think your evidence is

          25       you move it into the aim position and you don't come out


                                           145
 

 

 


           1       of that position?  You're stationary.

           2   A.  When I fired the shot, sir, is that --

           3   Q.  Yes.

           4   A.  Yes, I did move, sir, yes.

           5   Q.  So we can see that you have taken aim --

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  -- and essentially your weapon --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- is in a horizontal position?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  Right.  Now, I think you describe your height as about

          12       6'2"?

          13   A.  6'2", there or thereabouts.

          14   Q.  There or thereabouts.  I think we may hear evidence that

          15       Mark Duggan was about six foot tall, something like

          16       that.

          17   A.  Okay, sir.

          18   Q.  Your evidence is that when Mark came out and pivoted

          19       180, he was more or less upright; that's the evidence

          20       you gave this morning?

          21   A.  There or thereabouts, yes, sir.

          22   Q.  More or less upright?

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   Q.  Can I just go through the science with you?

          25   A.  Of course you can, please do.


                                           146
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I wonder if I can use Mr Straw just to demonstrate

           2       something.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Right.  We'll see.  Would it be

           4       better if Mr Straw stands at the front so all the jury

           5       can see him.  Mr Straw, come round and stand in front of

           6       Mr Underwood then we can all see you, and indeed so can

           7       those upstairs as well.

           8            (Mr Straw moved to the front of the court)

           9   MR THOMAS:  If Mr Straw could stand on square to me.  You

          10       say Mark Duggan was more or less square on you.

          11   A.  There or thereabouts.

          12   Q.  This isn't fine precision, it's just giving an idea.

          13   A.  Absolutely, no problem.

          14   Q.  I'm going to come back to the trajectory records in one

          15       moment.  Can we just take the first trajectory rod, the

          16       X, the one that hits the arm?

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  If we can just show it again, please.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's Y, actually.

          20   MR THOMAS:  Sorry, the Y.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  There's nothing scientific in the

          22       "X" and "Y", as you know.  The scientist doesn't know

          23       which one came first.

          24   MR THOMAS:  I'm just going to refer to the trajectory rod

          25       that goes under the arm, the one that hits the bicep.


                                           147
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The right bicep.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   MR THOMAS:  If we look at the bicep trajectory rod we can

           4       see that's more or less horizontal?

           5   A.  Yes, sir.

           6   Q.  Just so you understand the science, you're in that

           7       position --

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   Q.  -- the horizontal position (indicates), Mark Duggan is

          10       in front of you.  When you fire, your bullet is going in

          11       a horizontal position, yes?

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   Q.  You don't change?

          14   A.  No.

          15   Q.  You don't change.  I'm going to make the suggestion that

          16       the science that we're going to hear is going to

          17       indicate that that probably is more likely than not your

          18       first shot; do you understand?

          19   A.  So it's clear in my head, Mr Thomas, what you're

          20       suggesting is that the arm shot is not the first --

          21   Q.  Is --

          22   A.  Is, okay.

          23   Q.  -- is the first shot.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You tell us it's the second shot.

          25   A.  It is, I believe so.


                                           148
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's being suggested it's the first.

           2       In any event, let's press on.

           3   MR THOMAS:  I'm going to continue.  Just so you understand.

           4       You're in that position.

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  You fire the first shot, your bullet is going

           7       horizontally.  Mark Duggan is in an upright type

           8       position, you hit the bicep first, okay?

           9   A.  Okay.

          10   Q.  Fine.  I want you just to look and understand.

          11           Your second shot, can we just show the image again.

          12       Can you see -- I wonder if Mr Straw could just turn to

          13       the side.  If Mr Straw just indicates there (indicates).

          14           Your bullet goes in around about that -- where

          15       Mr Straw is indicating --

          16   A.  Okay, sir, yes.

          17   Q.  -- then comes out lower down; do you see?

          18   A.  Yes, sir.

          19   Q.  If Mr Straw -- (indicates).

          20   A.  Okay, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  If you remain in the same position, right, to get that

          22       sort of angle, you would either have to be shooting down

          23       (indicates); do you follow?  So the bullet goes in

          24       a downward angle or Mr Duggan is leaning forward?

          25   A.  Okay.


                                           149
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Do you follow?

           2   A.  I do follow, yes, sir.

           3   Q.  I'm going to suggest that was the second shot.  Do you

           4       understand?

           5   A.  I do, sir.  Again, my recollection --

           6   MR THOMAS:  Mr Straw, if you would like to go back.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You give the answer.

           8   A.  Again, sir, this happened in the space of a second,

           9       a second and a half.  My recollection at the time is the

          10       first round impact on his chest and the second one

          11       impact on his arm.  That's my recollection, sir.  But

          12       I appreciate the science --

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Just move away from which is one and

          14       two, I know there's a difference there.  But you would

          15       accept, looking at those trajectory rods, that there is

          16       a real difference of the trajectory of the bullet coming

          17       out of your MP5.

          18   A.  I think the only thing, maybe perhaps, sir -- and again,

          19       I am no expert in this field whatsoever -- but if I'm

          20       looking at the threat, okay, so, again, I have to make

          21       a decision, so I have to -- I'm -- the information in

          22       front of me I'm taking in, my head is making the

          23       decision and then I decide to fire one round.

          24           So, again, when I've decided to fire the first

          25       round, Mr Duggan is like this (indicates), I perceive


                                           150
 

 

 


           1       the round to hit him on his chest which has caused

           2       a flinching movement so, again, when I've actually --

           3       when I've seen this threat, again, it's probably taken

           4       a split second to realise, "Right, that's a threat,

           5       right, brain, I need to fire again", and I've fired

           6       a second round so it may be -- again, I am not

           7       a scientist and I don't propose to be -- that as the

           8       round actually impacted on him, he may have been

           9       crouching down, I don't know, but when I fired the

          10       second round he was as I have demonstrated to you

          11       (indicates).

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  Have a seat.  I will

          13       just ask you one thing then we'll leave it there and

          14       we'll have a break.  You accept that the one thing out

          15       of all that, the one item that was moving, was

          16       Mr Duggan?  You're stock still, you're firing your two

          17       bullets.

          18   A.  Yes.  Again, if I can just be really clear, if I can be

          19       really clear again, sir, so hopefully I'm explaining

          20       this right for everyone.  Again, he has moved his arm

          21       way away, away from his body, I fired one round.  That's

          22       impacted on his chest (indicates) and now the gun is

          23       facing towards me and then I fired a second one.  So

          24       when I fired the second round he's like this (indicates)

          25       but I appreciate what you're trying to get across.


                                           151
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No, I'm just saying that the thing

           2       here, obviously the scientist will come and say whatever

           3       he or she is going to say and no doubt the barristers

           4       will ask them questions too, but, as far as your

           5       recollection is concerned, at the time of the two shots

           6       you are more or less --

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- static.

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Your feet are planted firmly, the

          11       gun is at the same height and level.  It may have been

          12       slightly left and right, do you think?

          13   A.  Maybe -- again, sir.  You know, it happened so quickly,

          14       it maybe slightly front on but maybe he was slightly to

          15       the left of me, ever so slightly.

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But between the two shots, that's

          17       the position --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and any movement is of Mr Duggan

          20       and his body, that's what makes the alteration of the

          21       trajectory of the bullets?

          22   A.  Yes.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  We'll have our break

          24       there.  So stay there just for a moment, we'll let the

          25       jury have a five or ten minute break.


                                           152
 

 

          23   (3.21 pm)

          24                         (A short break)

          25   (3.36 pm)

 

 

                                           153
 

 

 

           3                  (In the presence of the jury)

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much, members of the

           5       jury, we'll ask then for V53 to come back in.

           6                (The witness returned into court)

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  As before, under your oath

           8       affirmation, now we can put the cameras on and press on

           9       with the questioning.

          10   MR THOMAS:  V53, I want to come back, if I may, to this

          11       whole issue about Mark's positioning.

          12   A.  Okay.

          13   Q.  Now, the one thing that we know is that the

          14       trajectory -- that's the angle at which your bullet went

          15       through Mark's body, yes?

          16   A.  Okay.

          17   Q.  I want to show you a photograph in relation to the chest

          18       shot.  So this is the shot which you say you believe was

          19       the first shot; do you follow?

          20   A.  Okay, sir, yes.

          21   Q.  I've already been through with you the whole thing about

          22       you being static and the only thing that could have been

          23       moving was Mark, and we've understood your evidence in

          24       relation to that.

          25           For the chest shot to have gone in at the angle it


                                           154
 

 

 


           1       went in, with you being positioned where you were, Mark

           2       Duggan would have had to have been in this sort of

           3       position -- I wonder if the photo could be shown.

           4           Could we pan out of it a second.  So let's pan out.

           5           So you can see, for the chest shot to have been

           6       aimed and to have gone in at the angle which would have

           7       been more or less horizontal, Mark Duggan would have had

           8       to have been bent over in your direction in that sort of

           9       position.  If we show the next photo, at the side, in

          10       that sort of angle, do you see?

          11   A.  I do, yes, sir.

          12   Q.  That's not your evidence?

          13   A.  No, it's not my evidence, sir, but, again, my

          14       recollection is what I told you before the lunch

          15       break -- the break.

          16   Q.  Yes.  I just want to be clear so that everybody

          17       understands.  Your evidence is not that Mark Duggan --

          18       when you shot him, your evidence is not that he was bent

          19       over in that way?

          20   A.  No.  As I said, sir, before lunch, when I fired the

          21       second round, when I decided to fire the second round,

          22       he was like this (indicates).

          23   Q.  I understand that.  V53, I understand that.  Forget

          24       about the second round because I am not concentrating on

          25       what you say is the arm shot.  I'm concentrating on the


                                           155
 

 

 


           1       chest shot, that's all I'm focusing on.

           2   A.  Okay.

           3   Q.  To be clear, you are saying that, "When I shot him in

           4       the chest, he was not bent over in the way that we could

           5       see"?

           6   A.  No, sir, that's not my recollection.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Not your recollection at all?

           8   A.  No.

           9   MR THOMAS:  You see, if I can just deal with this -- sorry,

          10       can we just show the next photo.  Sorry, the one where

          11       you see -- both trajectory rods going through, the X and

          12       the Y.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The one on the side that we had

          14       earlier on.

          15   MR THOMAS:  That's the one, yes.  So just let's look at

          16       this.  In your version of events, V53 -- all I'm doing

          17       is just focusing on the science where the trajectory

          18       rods went in and your evidence that you are static, you

          19       are in the same position.

          20           For those injuries, those track wounds, to have been

          21       on Mark Duggan, this must have happened, on your version

          22       of events.  So you have Mark Duggan with the first shot,

          23       your first shot, which you say is the chest shot, bent

          24       over and then, after you've shot him in the chest, he

          25       rises up.


                                           156
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, that's not my recollection, sir.

           2   Q.  I appreciate that.  But do you see the point I'm making?

           3       If you look at the trajectories, if what you're saying

           4       is right, that you shot him in the chest first --

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   Q.  -- and then you shot him in the arm second, for that to

           7       happen, on the science, Mark Duggan would have had to

           8       have been bent over first for the chest shot, to get the

           9       right angle --

          10   A.  Okay.

          11   Q.  -- and then stood up and you shot him in the arm; is

          12       that what you're saying happened?

          13   A.  Again, my recollection, sir, is how I described it

          14       earlier on.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes, all right.

          16   A.  So I appreciate the science but --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Nothing that's going to be said

          18       about that -- it's your recollection.

          19   A.  It's my recollection, sir.

          20   MR THOMAS:  May I suggest -- sorry, there's just one other

          21       point on that.  Not only do you have the angle, the

          22       chest shot with the angle going downwards, but it's also

          23       going from right to left, do you follow --

          24   A.  Yes, I do follow, sir, yes.

          25   Q.  -- which would suggest that when Mark Duggan was shot in


                                           157
 

 

 


           1       the chest, he was at an angle facing towards where the

           2       minicab is.  He would have been facing towards the

           3       minicab; do you follow?

           4   A.  Sorry, sir, I appreciate your movements but whereabouts

           5       are you saying Mark Duggan would have been standing,

           6       with his back to the minicab?

           7   Q.  You are standing where you are standing -- imagine you

           8       are you, Mark Duggan is in front of you, the minicab

           9       would be to the left of Mark Duggan, to your right?

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   Q.  What I'm saying is, for the bullet to have entered the

          12       right-hand side and to have slightly come out on the

          13       left-hand side he would have had to have been tilted

          14       towards the minicab; do you follow?

          15   A.  I do follow, yes, sir.

          16   Q.  That's not what you say happened, is it?

          17   A.  No, sir, it's not.

          18   Q.  You see, I'm going to suggest the science doesn't

          19       support your account at all.

          20   A.  Okay.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's going to be a matter for the

          22       jury to consider.  I think he's given -- the only other

          23       thing that perhaps we have not looked at on this

          24       position is how much movement there was between the time

          25       he pivoted round and you saw the gun.  Because then you


                                           158
 

 

 


           1       have him towards the front of the minicab, don't you, at

           2       that time?

           3           He goes out, W42, then he pivots round, stood at the

           4       front of the minicab and then clearly, by the time he's

           5       shot, he's come past the door towards you, hasn't he,

           6       towards the rear of the minicab?

           7   A.  Yes, sir.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  What recollection do you have of

           9       that movement?

          10   A.  Again, sir, obviously I'm here to help but, you know,

          11       I don't want to make up stuff and bits and pieces.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We're trying to get every detail of

          13       your recollection out.

          14   A.  My recollection was that he's jumped out of the minicab,

          15       initially he's faced W42, he's done that pivot movement

          16       and, again, in my head, you know, the world has stopped,

          17       it's a freeze frame moment, because he's turned to face

          18       me.  So I don't remember whether or not he moved anymore

          19       but he was face on to me, maybe slightly to the left of

          20       me; that's all I can really remember.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Because another thing that clearly

          22       we are beginning to picture is that bullet that

          23       goes through the chest ends up in the taxi, more likely

          24       than not, so he's towards you, he's gone passed the door

          25       coming towards the rear of the taxi --


                                           159
 

 

 


           1   A.  Okay, yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- towards your square A on your

           3       plan; do you have any recollection of that movement at

           4       all?

           5   A.  Not really, sir, no.  Again, I don't want to put pieces

           6       of the jigsaw that isn't there.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I certainly don't want you to guess

           8       or to invent anything.  I am just trying to find whether

           9       you have any recollection of that particular part of

          10       this account.

          11   A.  No, sir, no.

          12   MR THOMAS:  Can I just follow the next theme up, and that's

          13       the positioning of Mark Duggan's hand.

          14           The science may suggest -- we have not heard it yet

          15       but I'm going to put it to you if you need to deal with

          16       it -- that the position of Mark Duggan's hand -- you

          17       know the shot to the bicep --

          18   A.  Yes.

          19   Q.  -- that Mark Duggan's hand wasn't in that position.  The

          20       way that the bullet has entered his arm, the science is

          21       going to suggest probably that his arm was close to his

          22       mid-region; do you follow?

          23   A.  Okay, so -- okay, yes, I think I follow, sir, yes.

          24   Q.  So there was no turning the gun out towards you; do you

          25       follow?


                                           160
 

 

 


           1   A.  I follow.  If that's what --

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think your evidence is not so much

           3       that the arm is coming out.

           4   A.  No, again if I can maybe describe, sir?

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You stand up and describe it for us.

           6   A.  Again, my description is that the bicep has more or less

           7       stayed in contact with his right chest (indicates).  So

           8       his hand has moved out like this, that's shot one and

           9       then his arm is still in contact with --

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So very much in the same shape, it's

          11       just the top of his chest that's circled around, turned

          12       around.  All right, thank you.

          13   A.  Yes.

          14   MR THOMAS:  Let's just focus on that, please, if I may.

          15           In your evidence this morning, you say that Mark

          16       Duggan, when you fired the second shot, fell backwards.

          17   A.  Yes.

          18   Q.  You have a clear image in your mind of him falling

          19       backwards.

          20   A.  At some stage he fell backwards, yes.

          21   Q.  You say "at some stage he fell backwards", you're

          22       talking about after you shot him?

          23   A.  Yes.  There's a -- probably a period of a couple of

          24       seconds that, yes, he fell backwards.

          25   Q.  Your evidence isn't: "I shot him and he fell forwards"?


                                           161
 

 

 


           1   A.  No, I haven't mentioned forwards, no, sir.

           2   Q.  You see, I'm going to suggest that not only are you

           3       wrong in your account but you are deliberately giving

           4       your account wrong in relation to him falling backwards.

           5       He fell forwards and you know it.

           6   A.  Mr Thomas, I appreciate you have to put that across.  My

           7       recollection at the time was he fell backwards.  I'm not

           8       here to try and mislead anyone, I'm here to help.  You

           9       know, I only can remember what I remember.  I am not

          10       going to say something that didn't happen or what

          11       I don't remember.  My recollection was that he went

          12       backwards.

          13   Q.  Fine.  Help me with this: tunnel vision; my eyes were

          14       glued to the gun -- when he pivoted 180 degrees, my eyes

          15       were glued on the gun; I was keeping my eye on the

          16       threat; at both times I discharged my weapon it was

          17       because I saw the threat, I saw the gun.  Yes?

          18   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          19   Q.  I wonder if we can just -- I know you know the weight of

          20       it but I wonder if -- I know the Bruni has been put into

          21       a plastic bag.  I wonder if it's still in that plastic

          22       bag.  I wonder if it could be put back into the plastic

          23       bag just so the jury can feel the weight of the Bruni.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  May I have it first because

          25       I haven't had it yet?


                                           162
 

 

 


           1   MR THOMAS:  I understand it does not have the magazine in it

           2       and the magazine itself is relatively heavy.  (Handed)

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I see.  Thank you.  (Handed)

           4             (The weapon was passed around the jury)

           5   MR THOMAS:  Would you agree it's a bit of a weight, isn't

           6       it?

           7   A.  It is, it's definitely heavier, I would suggest, than my

           8       Glock SLP.

           9   Q.  It's a heavy gun, isn't it?  You have felt the weight?

          10   A.  It's definitely heavier than my service issue firearm.

          11   Q.  As I have already indicated, that is without the

          12       magazine and with the magazine it would be heavier.

          13   A.  It would be slightly -- I don't know the make of the

          14       magazine.  Was that plastic or was it metal, sir?

          15   Q.  I understand that we have the magazine at some point

          16       perhaps we can test it with it.  I won't ask --

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I do not think we need to worry

          18       about it with this witness.

          19   MR THOMAS:  In any event, let's come back to this point in

          20       your evidence.  There you are, and if I can just remind

          21       you of your evidence -- just bear with me one moment.

          22       (Pause)

          23           Do you remember being questioned about this in the

          24       Hutchinson-Foster criminal trial?

          25   A.  I do, sir, yes.


                                           163
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I wonder if we can just call up page CHF3519.  If you

           2       could just follow it on the screen with me, I'm reading

           3       from letter C.

           4   A.  Okay, thank you, sir.

           5   Q.  Do you see, the question that you're asked by Mr Denney,

           6       who was counsel in that case, is:

           7           "Question: The gun is still in his hand?"

           8           This is after you fired the second shot, all right?

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   Q.  That's the point we are taking matters up.

          11           "Question: The gun is still in his hand?

          12           "Answer: Absolutely.  Yes.

          13           "Question: You saw it?

          14           "Answer: Absolutely.

          15           "Question: And was he in that position that you have

          16       just described when you fired the second shot?

          17           "Answer: As I said, when I fired the second shot, or

          18       the first shot has impacted on his chest so the first

          19       shot was when the gun was moved away from his body.  The

          20       round has impacted on him, which has caused his body to

          21       move to the right slightly, and the gun, or the barrel

          22       of the gun, has moved towards my general direction,

          23       so --

          24           "Question: Stop there in that position, if you

          25       would.  Was that the position that you are showing the


                                           164
 

 

 


           1       jury, that Mark Duggan was in when you fired the second

           2       shot?

           3           "Answer: When I fired the second shot, yes.

           4           "Question: Right arm -- just stay there for a moment

           5       if you would?

           6           "Answer: Sorry.

           7           "Question: Right arm close to his side, forearm

           8       pointing outwards and pretty much forwards?

           9           "Answer: Yes.  Again, I can't say what his left arm

          10       was doing -- "

          11           Just pause there.  What you appear to be saying in

          12       the criminal trial was his right arm was close to his

          13       side with his forearm pointing outwards, pretty much

          14       forward?

          15   A.  Yes, like how I've described (indicates) so his forearm

          16       is pointing forwards.

          17   Q.  All right.  Then you go on to say:

          18           "-- because I was totally focused on what's going to

          19       cause me ..."

          20           I think that should be "harm".

          21   A.  Yes.

          22   Q.  "... So that's what I'm saying."

          23           Just pause there.  This morning you said, I think

          24       your expression was you were "glued to the gun"?  That's

          25       what you said this morning?


                                           165
 

 

 


           1   A.  I cannot remember the specific word but I was totally

           2       focused on the gun, yes.

           3   Q.  All right.  Then Mr Denney puts to you.

           4           "Question: But slightly flinched to his right?

           5           "Answer: Yes.

           6           "Question: Yes.  Thank you.

           7           "Answer: Thank you.  (Pause)

           8           "Question: Yes.  And he fired the second round as

           9       you told us, and what effect did that have on Mr Duggan?

          10           "Answer: As I said, the round appeared to impact on

          11       his right arm or his bicep, and what I remember, he fell

          12       to the floor.

          13           "Question: Which way did he fall?  Forwards,

          14       backwards or sideways?

          15           "Answer: Uh, my recollection he fell backwards from

          16       what I can recall.

          17           "Question: What did he do with his hands?

          18           "Answer: I don't remember.  I think he may have,

          19       I don't know which hand.  I seem to recall, again, he

          20       may have clenched his chest but I can't remember to be

          21       honest with you.  But he --

          22           "Judge: Do not speculate.

          23           "Answer: Sorry.  Sorry, my Lord.  He's fallen to the

          24       floor.  I suppose the answer is I don't know what he

          25       done with his hands.


                                           166
 

 

 


           1           "Mr Denney: Do you have any memory of his hands

           2       going to his chest?

           3           "Answer: I can't remember to be honest.  It's

           4       obviously happened so quickly.

           5           "Question: I anticipate, if one has a gun pointed at

           6       you, one would tend to focus on the gun.  Would that be

           7       fair?

           8           "Answer: Yes, obviously, in -- the way I describe

           9       this moment is, like as I said earlier on, it's a freeze

          10       frame moment.  When -- I was totally focused on his

          11       hands and what's in his hands, because that's what's

          12       going to cause me harm and cause my colleagues harm.  So

          13       after I fired the second shot, as I say, in the blink of

          14       an eye, one second the gun was there; when I looked

          15       again, it was gone."

          16           Let's just pause there.  Let me ask you a question.

          17       Just so we can have this in our mind's eye.  There you

          18       are, this threat -- which you're trained to assess, and

          19       you say you did assess; is that right?

          20   A.  That's correct, yes.  Yes, I did.

          21   Q.  Your words this morning, your eyes were glued to the

          22       gun?

          23   A.  Yes, focused on the gun, yes.

          24   Q.  I'm just repeating the words -- I'm just using the words

          25       that you used this morning.


                                           167
 

 

 


           1   A.  Okay, sir.

           2   Q.  You fire your shot, you would agree, wouldn't you, that

           3       you have to ensure that Mr Duggan is no longer a threat;

           4       agreed?

           5   A.  That's correct.  We were looking to -- again, I do not

           6       want to use police terminology but we wanted to make

           7       sure the threat is neutralised, so you want the threat

           8       to be stopped, if that makes sense.

           9   Q.  The threat here was this is an armed man who was

          10       pointing a gun at you and you had your eye on the gun?

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   Q.  Your eyes that you never took off the gun?

          13   A.  That's correct, sir, yes.

          14   Q.  So tell us what happened to the gun?

          15   A.  Again, sir, I would love to be able to say to you -- sit

          16       here and say I saw the gun fly over the fence after the

          17       second shot but I didn't.  I am not going to put

          18       something down on paper that I haven't seen.  I'm sure

          19       it would clear up a hell of a lot of stuff if I was able

          20       to say "Yes, I saw the gun fly through the air and it

          21       landed wherever" but I didn't see it.  So I am not going

          22       to sit here, you know, nearly two years on.  I wasn't

          23       going to do that at the time or in the days after and

          24       put down something that I didn't see.

          25   Q.  May I suggest --


                                           168
 

 

 


           1   A.  So again, sir, the answer is I didn't see what happened

           2       to the gun.

           3   Q.  May I suggest one thing you don't see is you don't see

           4       Mr Duggan, after you've shot him, do any sudden

           5       movement; that's correct, isn't it?

           6   A.  It depends what you mean by sudden movement, sir.

           7   Q.  You don't see him do any jerking movement with his arms,

           8       do you?

           9   A.  I don't remember, sir, no.

          10   Q.  Because that is something -- bearing in mind that you

          11       were totally focused on the gun and the gun was in his

          12       hand, correct?

          13   A.  It was, yes, after I fired the second shot.

          14   Q.  You are nodding but I am just saying that so it picks up

          15       on the tape.

          16   A.  Yes.

          17   Q.  The one thing you would have seen, being totally focused

          18       on his hand/threat would have been if he had made any

          19       jerky or throwing movement; you would have seen that?

          20   A.  You're saying I should have seen it or, you know, you're

          21       assuming I should see it.

          22   Q.  I'm saying you would have seen that?

          23   A.  I can't answer if you would've or you didn't.  What I'm

          24       telling you, sir -- I hope I'm answering this

          25       question --


                                           169
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Your recollection of what you did or

           2       didn't see.  You didn't see.

           3   A.  My recollection is, at the time, I didn't see -- after

           4       I fired the second shot, I don't know where the gun

           5       went.

           6   MR THOMAS:  You see, may I suggest, that the reason why you

           7       don't know where the gun went is because Mr Duggan

           8       didn't have a gun on him, did he, when he got out of the

           9       cab?

          10   A.  Mr Thomas, I appreciate you have to put that across but

          11       that's complete rubbish, do you know what I mean?

          12       Mr Duggan, Mark Duggan, had a gun when he got out of

          13       that minicab.  I'm 100 per cent convinced, on 4 August

          14       as I am today, okay, that this moment has lived with me

          15       for the last two years.  I keep running this moment

          16       through my head day in, day out and Mark Duggan had

          17       a gun, he presented a threat to me and the only option

          18       I had was to defend myself and to open fire.  So very

          19       clearly, Mr Thomas, Mark Duggan had a firearm when he

          20       faced me.

          21   Q.  Help me with this: as a police officer, you know that

          22       there are times when you're going to want to interview

          23       people in terms of carrying out an investigation; would

          24       that be fair?

          25   A.  As a suspect or as a witness, sir?


                                           170
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Yes.

           2   A.  As a suspect or a witness?

           3   Q.  Either.  There are going to be times when you are going

           4       to want to, either as a suspect or as a witness?

           5   A.  Yes, there is, sir, yes.

           6   Q.  The one thing that, you know, you would want to do when

           7       you were -- if you wanted to interview somebody, is you

           8       would want to ensure that the account they gave was

           9       their own account.

          10   A.  Absolutely, sir, yes.

          11   Q.  That's important, isn't it?

          12   A.  Absolutely because it's your recollection of the events.

          13   Q.  So, for instance, if somebody was, say -- you know, you

          14       had a series of questions that you wanted to ask them,

          15       you would want to give them an opportunity to answer

          16       those questions but you would not necessarily want to

          17       flag up the questions that you would want to ask them,

          18       so that they could go away and rehearse them or discuss

          19       them with somebody else; would you agree?

          20   A.  It depends what -- again, sir, I probably suggest it

          21       depends if you're asking them as a suspect.  Obviously,

          22       if you are going to interview somebody who's under

          23       arrest you would not necessarily disclose the questions.

          24       However, if they were a significant witness you may well

          25       give them the questions.


                                           171
 

 

 


           1   Q.  You see, when you -- do you remember I was asking you

           2       questions earlier on about how this incident had lived

           3       with you, how many statements you had made?  It's right,

           4       isn't it, that you were asked by the IPCC to give

           5       an interview, weren't you?

           6   A.  Yes I was, sir, yes.

           7   Q.  Do you remember what you said to the IPCC?

           8   A.  I attended interview in November 2012, sir.

           9   Q.  Do you remember what you said to the IPCC when they

          10       wanted to ask you a series of questions?

          11   A.  Yes, I did, sir.  I declined.

          12   Q.  You said, just to remind you -- if anybody wants to

          13       follow, I am not asking for it to be up on the screen

          14       but it's CD1852 -- you said, and I quote:

          15           "I'm here today because I want to be helpful and

          16       transparent.  I want to help the investigation as best

          17       I can.  Obviously I've given statements in the past and

          18       obviously I'm here today because I want to help.  But

          19       obviously I would like to know what you're trying to ask

          20       me so that probably, from my point of view, if you tell

          21       me what you want from me, in the nicest possible way,

          22       I'll seek advice, like I say I want to help the Inquiry,

          23       I'll digest the questions that you've asked me and then

          24       I'll come back to you.  It might not be today.  I'll

          25       come back to you as soon as possible with a response."


                                           172
 

 

 


           1           And so on.

           2   A.  Yes.

           3   Q.  You know, in terms of a police investigation, you were

           4       given several opportunities, and you produced -- do you

           5       remember I listed all the witness statements?

           6   A.  Yes.

           7   Q.  This is an event that you say you've been living with

           8       every day and you wanted to be helpful.  Why didn't you

           9       just simply answer the questions that the IPCC wanted to

          10       ask you; why did you decline?

          11   A.  Okay, there's a number of points there, if I may try and

          12       deal with them all together.

          13           When a police shooting happens we're guided by the

          14       Association of Chief Police Officers Manual of Guidance,

          15       okay, and that came about in -- I think, the edition

          16       would have been the 2011 edition.  At that time, the

          17       Manual of Guidance stated that if you're involved in

          18       a police shooting we have to follow certain guidelines

          19       and those guidelines is you can either decide to go to

          20       be interviewed or go and give written statements.

          21           Now, for me personally, I wanted to be open and

          22       accountable from the earliest opportunity, hence why

          23       I gave a verbal account at the scene at 18.50.  I also

          24       gave a statement that night, and then 48 hours later

          25       I gave a 24-page statement.  So for that period in time


                                           173
 

 

 


           1       we were not asked to be interviewed, we were asked to

           2       give an account, as per the ACPO Manual of Guidance.

           3           Obviously a couple of months go past, then what I'm

           4       led to believe is the IPCC asked my solicitor and our

           5       legal team if we would want to be interviewed.  Again

           6       for me personally, I thought the best way for me to give

           7       the evidence across was to do it in written format and,

           8       again, adhering to the guidelines, which are written

           9       down in the ACPO Manual of Guidance, I decided the best

          10       way I could give the information across wasn't to be

          11       interviewed, but was to put it down on paper, okay?

          12       That happened in January.

          13           Again, a couple of months went past and again the

          14       IPCC wanted some more questions answering.  They sent

          15       a list of I think in excess of 250 questions they wanted

          16       answering and, again, I decided -- I thought about which

          17       is the best way to answer this, so I went through the

          18       questions logically and I wrote, I think it was another

          19       14-page statement, and that was in May 2012.

          20           A couple of months go past again where we have no

          21       contact.  Again, the IPCC asked, in August, from what

          22       I can recall, if we can assist with other bits and

          23       pieces.  So again IPCC asked if you could do A, B, C

          24       and, again, within a very timely period of time, again,

          25       I've done another statement, always adhering to that


                                           174
 

 

 


           1       ACPO Manual of Guidance.

           2           Then in November last year, the IPCC asked me to be

           3       interviewed because they wanted one question cleared up

           4       and, again, I attended interview.  They've asked me the

           5       question, which was about the order of shots, and,

           6       again, for me personally, the best way, after getting

           7       some legal advice, was I'm going to think about it

           8       overnight because it's an important point, I've thought

           9       about it overnight and then within a day or so I've

          10       presented -- I've written up a two and a half-page

          11       statement.

          12           So for me personally, I can say hand on heart I've

          13       assisted in investigations throughout, I've adhered to

          14       the ACPO Manual of Guidance throughout this process and

          15       I've given everything possible I can to the IPCC in

          16       written format.

          17   Q.  V53, it's not very transparent though, is it?

          18   A.  You're telling me that's not transparent, sir?

          19       (indicates)

          20   Q.  V53, you taking the question away and answering

          21       a question without nobody knowing how you will come up

          22       with the answer, who you're discussing with, it's not

          23       very transparent, is it?

          24   A.  I totally disagree, sir, because, again, if I can read

          25       something out to you in our statement format, sir, at


                                           175
 

 

 


           1       the top of every statement:

           2           "This statement consisting of three pages each

           3       signed by me is true to the best of my knowledge and

           4       belief and I make it known that if it is tendered in

           5       evidence I shall be liable to prosecution if I've

           6       wilfully stated anything which I know to be false or do

           7       not believe to be true."

           8           I have to sign that, sir, so that is being open and

           9       transparent.

          10   Q.  V53, it's not transparent when you take a statement

          11       away, a question away, ask what the question is, take it

          12       away and provide an answer in a way that the IPCC cannot

          13       see how you are formulating that answer; that's not very

          14       transparent, is it?

          15   A.  I disagree with you, sir.  Again, if we look at the ACPO

          16       Manual of Guidance that was in place at that time,

          17       actually the newer version, which I believe is the third

          18       edition, there is a part in that which states how the

          19       investigative body would like information and they can

          20       either take a statement themselves, the IPCC can take

          21       a statement from us, or we can do the statement.

          22           So, again sir, I totally disagree with what you're

          23       saying.  We have adhered to the ACPO Manual of Guidance

          24       and the procedure which is in place to deal with police

          25       shootings.  So I disagree with you totally.


                                           176
 

 

 


           1   Q.  I've nearly finished, just two more questions.  In

           2       relation to the shots that you fired, you accept this:

           3       if there was no gun in Mark Duggan's hand, you would

           4       have had no justification to shoot him, agreed?

           5   A.  If he wasn't posing me a threat I wouldn't have fired.

           6   Q.  No.  My question was: if there was no gun in Mark

           7       Duggan's hand, you would have had no justification to

           8       shoot him; do you agree?

           9   A.  I would have no justification but secondly, sir,

          10       I wouldn't have fired.

          11   Q.  Secondly, in relation to the order of shots, okay -- now

          12       we've heard your evidence, that the -- you say you shot

          13       the chest first --

          14   A.  (Nods)

          15   Q.  -- but this much is clear, and I think you can accept

          16       this: the chest shot was the fatal shot?

          17   A.  Yes.  I believe, sir, yes, I believe so, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  Now, I'm going to suggest the evidence indicates that

          19       the first shot was the non-fatal shot, in other words

          20       the shot in the bicep that went through, penetrated,

          21       Mark Duggan and hit your colleague.

          22   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Some evidence suggests that but it's

          23       not actually 100 per cent, so perhaps the question might

          24       be better framed.

          25   MR THOMAS:  Let me rephrase the question.


                                           177
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Yes.

           2   MR THOMAS:  The shot that hit the bicep, yes?

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   Q.  I'm suggesting that was the first shot?

           5   A.  Okay.

           6   Q.  Okay.

           7   A.  Do you want me to reply to that, sir?

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Your account of what happened, you

           9       have given it a number of times now.

          10   A.  Yes.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You've been asked about it.  This

          12       has been put to you.  Anything there to make you think

          13       again?

          14   A.  No.  Sir, I appreciate why we are hearing bits and

          15       pieces.  Again my perception at the time was shot one

          16       was the chest and shot two was the arm.  That was my

          17       perception at the time.

          18   MR THOMAS:  If shot one was the arm shot, I'm going to

          19       suggest there was no justification because that would

          20       have disabled the man and there would have been no

          21       justification for the second shot.

          22   A.  Again, sir, you're presuming the first round hit him on

          23       the arm, that's your presumption and your presumption,

          24       if I pick this up right, you're saying the first shot

          25       would have disarmed him?


                                           178
 

 

 


           1   Q.  In this way, follow: first shot, horizontal, hits him in

           2       the arm -- and I'm going to suggest what the science is

           3       going to show is after you've shot him in the arm far

           4       from flinching backwards, bringing the gun into your

           5       direction, what the first shot does is knock Mark

           6       forward so the -- if the gun is in his hand -- I am not

           7       suggesting there was a gun in his hand but just running

           8       with your account -- he would have gone forward, moving

           9       the gun away from you (indicates), do you follow, which

          10       is why --

          11   A.  Can I just stop you there?  If that's what you're

          12       saying, that the gun is in his hand, as you're leaning

          13       forward, the gun would have done this sweeping movement.

          14       That's what you're suggesting, am I picking that up

          15       okay?  Have I got that wrong?

          16   Q.  No.  Firstly, I'm not suggesting there was a gun in his

          17       hand at all.  I'm running with your account?

          18   A.  Okay.

          19   Q.  I'm saying if you're right and there was a gun in his

          20       hand, the first shot, the science indicates, is the --

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Thomas, I'm going to come in on

          22       this.  I've been very patient.  The position is here, as

          23       I explained when Mr Underwood was asking questions is

          24       that, through the Coroner's team, a number of scientists

          25       have been approached, the jury will hear about their


                                           179
 

 

 


           1       conclusions, and I felt it fair that Mr Underwood --

           2       I am not sure whether he wanted to or not, but I asked

           3       him to -- deal with the scenario with the dummy, to

           4       allow V53 to give his account to see whether there was

           5       anything that that would help his memory.

           6           Now, as I understand it, all the scientific evidence

           7       that the jury will hear is really coming through my team

           8       and the work that they have done since this.

           9           Really, I think that what's happened is that this

          10       has been put now to V53, he understands that there are

          11       some evidence -- pieces of evidence that come which do

          12       not necessarily match up precisely with his account, but

          13       he's saying very firmly that "This is my recollection,

          14       virtually nothing that you're going to say, certainly

          15       not anybody else, is going to change that recollection

          16       about the mechanics of the incident".  So I think that

          17       really we've gone far enough on that.

          18   MR THOMAS:  Just bear with me one moment.  Thank you.

          19               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Anything else on behalf of the

          21       family?  One thing I wanted to ask, actually, I don't

          22       want this to appear to be shutting them up is really to

          23       do with your belief, because that's an important thing.

          24   A.  Yes.

          25   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Apart from what actually happened,


                                           180
 

 

 


           1       the jury are going to have to work out themselves, come

           2       to their conclusions, but part of what they're going to

           3       have to do is look at your honestly held belief.

           4   A.  Indeed so, yes.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  At the beginning of that, you have

           6       the briefing about Mark Duggan.

           7   A.  Yes.

           8   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You don't know much about him but

           9       you are then told, because that's the way that it works:

          10       you get briefed you know about the Tottenham Man Dem,

          11       you had your previous experiences with that gang

          12       culture.

          13   A.  Indeed, sir.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were you told that Mark Duggan was

          15       a man who actually has been described in this very room

          16       by a very senior acting Superintendent as a man who was

          17       very, very lightly convicted.

          18   A.  What I recall, sir, is we had a briefing which gave the

          19       overview of the operation.  It gave some specific

          20       information which was, I think, dated in July, that

          21       Mark Duggan had access to a firearm that was stored at

          22       a girlfriend's address.  Then it went through his

          23       previous convictions, which were -- yes, he had previous

          24       convictions but nothing really stood out.  The only

          25       thing that stood out for me was he was disqualified from


                                           181
 

 

 


           1       driving.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He seems to have respected that

           3       disqualification.

           4   A.  Yes, he did, by using the minicab.  The only thing

           5       I would say, sir, is, again, the information was Mark

           6       Duggan was a high ranking member of the TMD.  That's

           7       information I was given, and, again, from experience

           8       with dealing with gangs and bits and pieces, I suppose

           9       it's like a business, you know, you have your chain of

          10       command and then you've got your foot soldiers and a lot

          11       of time the senior officers of the gang don't

          12       necessarily get their hands dirty, it's our experience.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Had he been convicted of armed bank

          14       robbery and been to prison for many years you would have

          15       been told that, wouldn't you?

          16   A.  Yes, we would have been, yes.

          17   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  So you have that impression of him.

          18   A.  Again, the only impression I had of him, what I recall

          19       was he was a high ranking member of the TMD.  His

          20       previous convictions didn't really bother me, I suppose,

          21       for a better word.  But I was aware he was disqualified

          22       from driving, which sort of gave me -- the mindset was

          23       if he was driving a vehicle that we needed to stop

          24       there's a high probability he's going to fail to stop

          25       for us, and that was a piece of information that really


                                           182
 

 

 


           1       stuck in my mind at the time.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you.  So having stopped the

           3       cab, you've still got this picture in your mind which

           4       you tell us about.

           5   A.  Yes.

           6   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The belief that here is a high

           7       ranking member of a gang with this background.

           8   A.  Yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He gets out of the vehicle and goes

          10       towards W42.

          11   A.  Yes.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He doesn't shoot W42?

          13   A.  No.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Does that come into your

          15       calculation?

          16   A.  No.  Again, sir, I'm sure it was mentioned before, maybe

          17       by Mr Underwood when he spoke about the tactic of the

          18       stop that we do.  I think the phrase that was used was

          19       "shock and awe".  So when we do a stop we want to use

          20       speed, surprise, physical and verbal domination.  So by

          21       doing the speed we're stopping the vehicle at speed,

          22       we're using surprise and, unfortunately, we're not --

          23       we're not -- we have to be aggressive, we're using

          24       controlled aggression.  So again we're shouting loudly,

          25       you know, we're pointing guns at people.  So again we're


                                           183
 

 

 


           1       looking for domination.

           2           A lot of the time, these criminals will just go

           3       hands up or (indicates) they'll comply or we'll actually

           4       just get hands on and just drag them out of the car,

           5       handcuff them without any force other than that being

           6       used.

           7           Again, when we stop people, they have three options:

           8       they can either comply, as I've explained, yes, hands

           9       up, "Fair cop, guv, I suppose"; they can either escape,

          10       or attempt an escape; or they can fight their way out.

          11       So once we put the stop in, Mr Duggan still had those

          12       three options in place.

          13           Once he started darting across the back seat of the

          14       car, once the stop went in, that convinced me that he

          15       was looking to escape.  So my mindset straightaway was

          16       he's looking to go on his toes, for a better word.  By

          17       his action, jumping out of the car at pace with a spring

          18       in his step, again, the location of the stop was a good

          19       location because it was contained, front by Alpha,

          20       Bravo, Charlie, and we were fortunate that we had the

          21       fence line which you've probably seen at Ferry Lane to

          22       contain him.  So really he was contained 360 degrees.

          23           So, again, the only option he had was to try and

          24       escape or fight his way out.  As he's turned to face me,

          25       he obviously has a firearm and I --


                                           184
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Come back to my question.  He's

           2       chosen not to shoot his way out against W42.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Behind you are a number of officers.

           5   A.  Yes.  As I say there would have been me and W70, who's

           6       the Hatton gunner.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Are they pouring out of the control

           8       car or not?

           9   A.  The control car, yes, they may well have been deploying

          10       as well, but we would have been out before then.  But

          11       I think, again, my recollection, sir, I haven't been to

          12       Ferry Lane since, but I think there would have been

          13       a gap between the fence line and the control car,

          14       I might be wrong there, where he could have nipped into

          15       the grassed area but I might be wrong.  I can't --

          16   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  In your mind now, forget the

          17       mechanics of it, so he hasn't shot W42.

          18   A.  No.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  He turns round, you see the gun.

          20   A.  Yes.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  This is the point that the jury

          22       again will also concentrate on, apart from all the other

          23       things they have to concentrate on: your actions, were

          24       they absolutely necessary?

          25   A.  Yes.


                                           185
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Were they?

           2   A.  Again, sir, I think they were absolutely necessary in

           3       the circumstances.  Again, firearms officers only do

           4       discharge their firearms when absolutely necessary,

           5       okay?  A firearms officer must only discharge a firearm

           6       once they have an honest held belief that, due to the

           7       immediacy or proximity of the threat posed, the

           8       immediate discharge of firearms is absolutely necessary

           9       in the circumstances.

          10           We have to learn that word perfect when we do every

          11       course because that is the fundamental part when we

          12       discharge a firearm.  If I may break that down, sir,

          13       okay, so we must have an honest held belief.  We have

          14       powers to use force and I'm sure, sir, you'll probably

          15       go through the law further down the line.  But, for me,

          16       I've used my common law power which allows me, if I have

          17       an honest held belief, that I can do what's called

          18       a pre-emptive strike, whereby I have an honest held

          19       belief that there's an immediate threat to me or one of

          20       my colleagues.

          21           I don't have to wait for the first punch to be

          22       thrown or the first shot to be fired.  If I have

          23       an honest held belief that he is going to shoot me,

          24       I can fire first.  I hope I'm explaining that okay, sir,

          25       within the common law power, and that's the power I was


                                           186
 

 

 


           1       using on that day.

           2           That force has to be absolutely necessary in the

           3       circumstances.  When we say we're accountable, every

           4       round that we fire has to be accounted for.  So again

           5       when I explained this morning, the tipping point, as it

           6       were, or the line in the sand, when Mr Duggan had the

           7       gun like this (indicates), yes, it's a threat but it

           8       wasn't an immediate threat to my life, okay, so I was

           9       hoping that he would drop it.  But the tipping point is

          10       when he actually moved it away from his body (indicates)

          11       that to me is the tipping point where I have now

          12       an honest held belief that he's going to shoot me or he

          13       he's going to shoot me in that motion (indicates).

          14           So, again, I've assessed and I've discharged one

          15       round and then I've reassessed again.  So again, I'm

          16       still -- I think you spoke about the conflict management

          17       model, the sort of --

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  We will not deal with that at the

          19       moment.

          20   A.  Okay.

          21   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Let's stay in Ferry Lane, at that

          22       point you have body armour on.

          23   A.  Yes.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Tell us what you're wearing.

          25   A.  I think we might actually have a set here.


                                           187
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  That's why I'm asking you about it.

           2       Let's have a look, see what you were wearing.  (Handed)

           3   A.  On that day I was in plain clothes so I was wearing

           4       boots, combat trousers, I was wearing like a polo top

           5       and I was wearing a jacket.  Underneath my Polo top

           6       I would be wearing body armour and this is covert police

           7       ballistic body armour.  It's light weight, okay, because

           8       when you wear it for 16, 20 hours a day it's going to

           9       get really smelly and bits and pieces, it's not that

          10       nice to wear.

          11           This will give you ballistic protection up to 9mm

          12       rounds and 3.57mm rounds.  So again what I mean by that

          13       is that will stop a handgun or like a Magnum handgun.

          14   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  If the gun that you believed you saw

          15       in Mr Duggan's hand was shot at that, you would have

          16       pretty good confidence that it wouldn't go through it.

          17   A.  I would not like to give it a go, but it would knock me

          18       on the floor, I would suggest.

          19   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  But not kill you.

          20   A.  I cannot say yes, sir, because within this body armour

          21       there's no trauma protection, there's no trauma plates.

          22       It's very light weight because, again, if you're running

          23       after people, you don't want to wear -- I don't know if

          24       you've seen airport armed police wearing big heavy black

          25       body armour.  That's very heavy, very uncomfortable to


                                           188
 

 

 


           1       wear.  At least with this, it's covert, it offers you

           2       some protection up to 9mm.  Again, if we were going up

           3       against somebody with a higher calibre weapon, such as

           4       a machine pistol or like an AK47, we would uparm.  So

           5       again we would wear this but put other body armour on

           6       top.

           7   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Back to Ferry Lane.

           8   A.  Sorry, I've gone too far away.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You had that on, I might need to get

          10       Mr Underwood or Mr Thomas to hold it up for the people

          11       upstairs looking at it, but you had that on.

          12   A.  Yes.

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Does that go into your calculation

          14       as to what is absolutely necessary, the fact that the

          15       risks to you are, to a degree, reduced if someone shot

          16       at your core?

          17   A.  I would probably say no, sir.  Because you're so close,

          18       again if we were looking to -- the best ballistic

          19       protection for us is behind a big brick wall or by the

          20       bonnet of a car where it will offer us the best

          21       ballistic protection.  Sometimes you have to minimise

          22       that risk and that's the only thing you can rely on.

          23       However, sir, in the nicest possible way, that is only

          24       body armour and you're going to have a really, really

          25       bad day still if you're shot with 9mm rounds even


                                           189
 

 

 


           1       wearing body armour, I would suggest.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  All right.  As I just talked about

           3       that, I wondered if perhaps the usher or the officer

           4       with you could walk into shot.  Walk over to where

           5       Mr Underwood is.  Turn round so that those upstairs

           6       could just see this body armour that was being worn.

           7       All the other officers were wearing this, were they?

           8   A.  Yes, sir, yes.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Would you describe what you were

          10       wearing as being in full uniform or plain clothes in the

          11       words that you used in your notebook?

          12   A.  I've said plain clothes because I was wearing combat

          13       trousers, however the raid jacket we were wearing, it is

          14       a police issue jacket.  It is plain clothes, however

          15       once you flip out the police sign at the front and the

          16       flip side at the back, it's -- clearly you're a police

          17       officer.  So personally I would say I'm in plain clothes

          18       but wearing the baseball cap and that jacket you could

          19       argue in uniform as well, I suppose.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well, some have.

          21           Thank you.  That's what I wanted to -- perhaps

          22       I ought to give you this opportunity now before others

          23       may or may not want to ask you any more questions.  One

          24       of the points that you might like to just comment on is

          25       obviously that the MP5 is the weapon that you chose --


                                           190
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes.

           2   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and you are trained to choose in

           3       this situation.

           4   A.  (Nods)

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  It's been raised as to whether

           6       either it might have been better or easier for you to

           7       use your Glock, which is smaller and more

           8       manoeuverable --

           9   A.  Yes.

          10   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  -- and/or the Taser.

          11   A.  Okay.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Can you just make your comments

          13       about this?

          14   A.  I'll probably deal with the Glock first of all.  The

          15       Glock is our secondary weapon, okay?  So a Glock only

          16       has really a range of 20 to 25 metres, whereas a MP5 has

          17       a range of up to 50 metres.  A MP5 is far more accurate

          18       and reliable than a Glock because you have a better

          19       sight system.  On top of that, if you have a malfunction

          20       with your MP5 -- we call it an immediate action drill.

          21       So if you're actually facing a threat with a MP5 and you

          22       pull the trigger and the weapon malfunctions or you have

          23       a stoppage, what the drill is: you ditch the MP5 because

          24       it's a piece of metal to you now, throw that to one side

          25       then you go for your Glock and that's your backup


                                           191
 

 

 


           1       weapon, whereas if you went for your Glock first of all

           2       and you have a malfunction on the Glock, you're sitting

           3       there with a piece of metal in your hands doing no good

           4       to you.

           5   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Certainly for the shock and awe, the

           6       MP5 obviously looks much more frightening.

           7   A.  It is.  It's a far more reliable, far more accurate

           8       weapon for what we need it for.  Again, the other option

           9       we had with an MP5 is, it's a bit of a drastic action

          10       but we can actually muzzle strike people as well, which

          11       is actually hit somebody with the weapon in the chest

          12       (indicates).

          13   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Taser?

          14   A.  Taser, again, the only way I can describe it -- I think

          15       I explained Taser this morning.  I suppose when I teach

          16       this I sort of go back to really basics.  I think

          17       hopefully we've all played Rock, Paper, Scissors, where,

          18       you know, scissors will always beat paper.  A firearm

          19       will always beat a Taser because a Taser will not

          20       achieve immediate incapacitation on a subject.  If

          21       you're going up against somebody with a gun, you want to

          22       go up against that person with a gun, because if you go

          23       up against them with a Taser, the Taser -- you may -- it

          24       may not work because no Taser is 100 per cent effective.

          25           Again, the barbs may not penetrate clothing if it's


                                           192
 

 

 


           1       more than two inches thick, you may miss or one of the

           2       darts may not penetrate, and so on and so forth.  What

           3       we're trying to achieve is immediate incapacitation and

           4       if we had have went with a Taser on that day, it

           5       would -- it just wasn't the right tactical option.

           6           Again, once -- if there wasn't a firearms threat,

           7       again, I would reassess and then I probably would have

           8       ditched my MP5 and went to a Taser.  But because I was

           9       faced with a firearms threat, that's why I used the

          10       firearm in response.

          11   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you very much for dealing with

          12       all those matters, let me just see now.

          13           The next person will be Mr Keith to ask questions.

          14   MR KEITH:  I have no questions, thank you.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  The next person after that I think

          16       would be Mr Butt.

          17   MR BUTT:  No thank you, sir.

          18   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Then I have those representing

          19       Serious Organised Crime Agency, as it then was.  No,

          20       right.  I do not believe -- I might have Mrs Auben (?).

          21       Any questions you might have?  No.

          22           Mr Glasson?

          23   MR GLASSON:  No, thank you sir.

          24   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Mr Stern?  How many questions do you

          25       have.


                                           193
 

 

 


           1   MR STERN:  I have just a few, if people will bear with me

           2       for less than ten minutes.

           3   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  I think we're happy to bear with

           4       you, Mr Stern.  Thank you.

           5                      Questions by MR STERN

           6   MR STERN:  First of all, you were asked about being

           7       transparent and you said that you made a number of

           8       statements and you were taken through those dates.  Did

           9       you also give evidence in the prosecution of Kevin

          10       Hutchinson-Foster, first of all in September 2012 and

          11       then in January 2013?

          12   A.  I did indeed, sir, yes.

          13   Q.  Called by the prosecution, you were asked questions by

          14       prosecution counsel and then cross-examined, as I think

          15       Mr Thomas pointed out, by Mr Denney who appeared for

          16       Mr Hutchinson-Foster?

          17   A.  I was indeed, in September and January this year, yes.

          18   Q.  Could I ask, please, that we just have CS81 up on the

          19       screen.  If you look at the lower half of that

          20       statement, you were asked by the IPCC to expand or to

          21       explain what it was that Mr Duggan did when he got out

          22       of the minicab.

          23   A.  Yes, sir.

          24   Q.  You put there:

          25           "In relation to how Mr Duggan exited the minicab,


                                           194
 

 

 


           1       I say he got out at pace.  What my recollection is, that

           2       he jumped out as opposed to step out.  My impression was

           3       that he was getting out of the minicab as quickly as

           4       possible.  He had a spring in his step.

           5           "In relation to the movement and actions of

           6       Mr Duggan after he exited, I describe this as a freeze

           7       frame moment."

           8           I think that's what you told us today:

           9           "I was totally focused on his hand movements so

          10       cannot be sure about his actions and movements.  My

          11       perception was he was more or less faced on with me with

          12       the handgun across his stomach in his right hand.

          13       I cannot say if he was moving or standing still.

          14           "In relation to my position when shots were fired,

          15       I cannot be specific.  I was on the footpath.  I don't

          16       think I was forward of the front of my covert armed

          17       response vehicle at the time the first shot was fired.

          18       I do not believe that I moved when I fired the second

          19       shot.

          20           "In relation into the position of Mr Duggan when

          21       shots were fired, I cannot be specific.  He was on the

          22       foot path, somewhere between the minicab and fence."

          23           Obviously we know that he came out of the minicab

          24       and he ended up by the fence because that's where you

          25       carried out the first aid.


                                           195
 

 

 


           1   A.  Yes it was, sir, yes.

           2   Q.  Did you see him get from the minicab, in other words

           3       running in that position, or not?

           4   A.  No, sir.

           5   Q.  We have heard from others that he was running.

           6   A.  No, sir.

           7   Q.  You didn't see?

           8   A.  No, sir.

           9   Q.  Your focus was on --

          10           When he went to the ground did he go to the ground

          11       where you carried out the first aid?

          12   A.  It's my recollection he did, sir.  He wasn't moved until

          13       the air ambulance turned up.

          14   Q.  We are going to hear from them.  They moved him, in

          15       fact, further from the railings more into the centre of

          16       the pavement?

          17   A.  Indeed they did, sir, yes.

          18   Q.  You've told the jury that, in relation to both of the

          19       shots that you fired, that Mr Duggan had the gun in his

          20       hand?

          21   A.  He did indeed, sir, yes.

          22   Q.  You told the jury that, in relation to both of those

          23       shots you had an honestly held belief that he was

          24       a threat, a significant threat to you.

          25   A.  Yes, he was, sir, yes.


                                           196
 

 

 


           1   Q.  Would you have fired at Mr Duggan knowing that W42 or

           2       one of the other officers was behind if you had not felt

           3       that threat?

           4   A.  Again ... one thing we're trained to do is always assess

           5       your backdrop.  Because, you know, we don't want to

           6       shoot where there may be, like, a school playground in

           7       the background or one of your colleagues and bits and

           8       pieces because, again, because of over-penetration, so

           9       on and so forth, you may have -- what I describe as

          10       a blue on blue where you may shoot your colleague or

          11       whatever.

          12           I was aware that W42 would have been there or

          13       thereabouts behind Mr Duggan.  However, the threat was

          14       so imminent I only -- the only choice I had was to open

          15       fire to defend myself and the colleague behind me and

          16       I sort of made a ... a dynamic risk assessment that it

          17       was more important to open fire than to let the threat

          18       carry on.

          19   Q.  I want to just ask you lastly, please, about

          20       this: obviously we are sitting in a court room some time

          21       later and examining, millisecond by millisecond,

          22       something that happened very quickly.

          23           You've been a police officer for a long time, and

          24       indeed an armed officer for a long time and a specialist

          25       firearms officer for some time.


                                           197
 

 

 


           1           Even though you have had all that training, just

           2       help with trying to convey, if you can, the feeling of

           3       having a gun pointed in your direction.

           4   A.  (Pause)  It's weird and ... today was the first time

           5       I've actually seen the gun sort of face up and it's not

           6       nice, even though I know it's safe and so on and so

           7       forth.

           8           It's not a nice feeling, to ... you know ... I'm

           9       a dad, I've got the best job in the world being a dad,

          10       and, you know, when somebody pulls a gun on you --

          11       I want to go home and see my children, I want to go back

          12       and see my wife at the end of the night.  I come into

          13       work, you know, to earn a living; I come from a working

          14       background.  All I want to do is, as cheesy as it

          15       sounds, help people.

          16           When somebody pulls a gun on you, your world is --

          17       I don't want to use industrial language but it's like

          18       your world is like "Oh, sugar, honey, iced tea", because

          19       somebody is pointing a gun at you.  And I hope it never

          20       happens again, sir, to be honest with you.

          21   MR STERN:  I said I would be less than ten minutes and I

          22       have been.  Thank you very much.

          23   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Well done, Mr Stern.  Mr Underwood?

          24   MR UNDERWOOD:  Nothing arising, thank you very much.

          25               Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER


                                           198
 

 

 


           1   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Could I just ask you, a final thing,

           2       about W70.

           3   A.  Yes.

           4   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  You're aware of him close by?  What

           5       can you recall of him doing?

           6   A.  I don't remember anything.  He was my Hatton gunner,

           7       I don't remember anything he'd done except assist me

           8       with the first aid on Mr Duggan.

           9   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Did he or anyone near you catch

          10       Mr Duggan before he fell?

          11   A.  I don't remember anyone catching him, sir.

          12   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Okay.  Right.  That's all I wanted

          13       to clarify.  You have no recollection of that?

          14   A.  No, sir.

          15   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  No.  Right, well, thank you very

          16       much, members of the jury, for sitting a little bit

          17       later.  It's, as you can understand, much better for

          18       that witness to be concluded.  So thank you.

          19   A.  Thank you.

          20   THE ASSISTANT CORONER:  Thank you, V53, that does conclude

          21       your evidence; you do not need to come back tomorrow.

          22           I'll ask then for the cameras to be turned off

          23       upstairs and I'll ask then, thank you, members of the

          24       jury, to be ready for 10.30 tomorrow morning then,

          25       please.


                                           199
 

 


          14   (4.43 pm)

          15       (The Inquest adjourned until 10.30 am on Wednesday,

          16                         16 October 2013)

          17
               Housekeeping .........................................1
          18
               V53 (sworn) ..........................................2
          19
                   Questions by MR UNDERWOOD ........................2
          20
               Housekeeping ........................................63
          21
               V53 (continued) .....................................70
          22
               Housekeeping ........................................98
          23
               V53 (continued) ....................................103
          24
                   Questions by MR THOMAS .........................104
          25
                   Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........180

 

 


                                           204
 

 

 


           1
                   Questions by MR STERN ..........................194
           2
                   Questions from THE ASSISTANT CORONER ...........198
           3
               Housekeeping .......................................200
           4

           5

           6

           7

           8

           9

          10

          11

          12

          13

          14

          15

          16

          17

          18

          19

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25


                                           205